WWTBAM Bored

So I read in the <*cough*>FAKE NEWS USA Today that Six Flags Over Texas is no longer going to fly the 6 flags that flew over Texas during its lifetime (Spain, Mexico, Britain, France, Confederacy, USA) but will fly only American flags. I presume the same will apply to any of the other Six Flags theme parks that included the Confederacy. It's been over 40 years since I went to Six Flags Over Texas; didn't one of the theme park sections have a "Confederacy" theme? Not slavery, but antebellum costumed performers and architecture? Or rides with a Confederate name?

I hate the argument that we are "erasing history." I don't know of anyone who learned history exclusively from flags or statues.

elwoodblues wrote:I hate the argument that we are "erasing history." I don't know of anyone who learned history exclusively from flags or statues.

You just contradicted yourself. You admit that history is learned from numerous sources, including flags and statues.

Ask yourself, how many people know that the land that is Texas had been part of Spain solely because of Six Flags. I'd wager most. Or that that that some of the same land once belonged to France. Same. Or even that Texas used to be its own country.

You can hate the argument, but it is a valid one. But I agree, we are not "erasing" history, but hiding it.

Just a matter of time before they begin taking down the Hitler and Tojo statues. I may have forgotten some other enemies of the USA. Sad.

ne1410s wrote:Just a matter of time before they begin taking down the Hitler and Tojo statues. I may have forgotten some other enemies of the USA. Sad.

When did they serve in the USA military? I must have slept that day in history class.

BackInTex wrote:

elwoodblues wrote:I hate the argument that we are "erasing history." I don't know of anyone who learned history exclusively from flags or statues.

You just contradicted yourself. You admit that history is learned from numerous sources, including flags and statues.

Ask yourself, how many people know that the land that is Texas had been part of Spain solely because of Six Flags. I'd wager most. Or that that that some of the same land once belonged to France. Same. Or even that Texas used to be its own country.

You can hate the argument, but it is a valid one. But I agree, we are not "erasing" history, but hiding it.

Are you saying that we should build monuments honoring Joe McCarthy to be sure we don't forget him? Should we name schools after Adolf Hitler to preserve the memory of his acts?

Of course not. These monuments aren't intended merely to educate. They're intended to honor their subjects. I, for one, refuse to believe that the American people are so stupid that the only way they can remember the Confederacy's important figures is by relying on monuments expressly intended to honor them and their cause. --Bob

Bob78164 wrote:

BackInTex wrote:

elwoodblues wrote:I hate the argument that we are "erasing history." I don't know of anyone who learned history exclusively from flags or statues.

You just contradicted yourself. You admit that history is learned from numerous sources, including flags and statues.

Ask yourself, how many people know that the land that is Texas had been part of Spain solely because of Six Flags. I'd wager most. Or that that that some of the same land once belonged to France. Same. Or even that Texas used to be its own country.

You can hate the argument, but it is a valid one. But I agree, we are not "erasing" history, but hiding it.

Are you saying that we should build monuments honoring Joe McCarthy to be sure we don't forget him? Should we name schools after Adolf Hitler to preserve the memory of his acts?

Of course not. These monuments aren't intended merely to educate. They're intended to honor their subjects. I, for one, refuse to believe that the American people are so stupid that the only way they can remember the Confederacy's important figures is by relying on monuments expressly intended to honor them and their cause. --Bob

We would certainly never put in many new confederate statues at this point in time, however, it seems a little "Talibanesque" to be removing them now.

There are advocates for removing Grant's Tomb from NYC because of an anti-semitic order he gave during the Civil War. The statue of Columbus in NYC is also at risk. Some creep just vandalized a 225-year old statue of Columbus in Baltimore.

When and where does this stop? Does it end with Confederate statues? How about monuments on the battlefields?

If Grant and Columbus go, can we get rid of FDR's monument because of the internment of the Japanese?

And MLK. Communist homophobe. A lot of streets and schools need to have their names changed.

BackInTex wrote:

ne1410s wrote:Just a matter of time before they begin taking down the Hitler and Tojo statues. I may have forgotten some other enemies of the USA. Sad.

When did they serve in the USA military? I must have slept that day in history class.

When did most Confederates serve in the USA military? Those who did became traitors.

Bob Juch wrote: When did most Confederates serve in the USA military?

Most having memorials and statues dedicated to them were well experienced and decorated US military, many having attended West Point.

Bob Juch wrote:Those who did became traitors.

How so? During the time it really was a United States (plural). Loyalty was to one's state, not to the federation. One cannot be a traitor when their loyalty is consistent.

BackInTex wrote: How so? During the time it really was a United States (plural). Loyalty was to one's state, not to the federation. One cannot be a traitor when their loyalty is consistent.

I actually agree with BiT for the most part here. The issue of whether we really are a United States is settled now, but it wasn't a settled issue in 1861. There was a considerable groundswell of opinion that the USA was like the European Union and that states could come and go. Look at the 20th century. When I was in school, the maps of Europe had Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. No more.

Of course, slavery was the issue that drove the Confederate states to secede, and their leaders made no bones about it that their new nation was dedicated to the preservation of slavery. The legality of that decision was open to question in 1861, but you can't fault the vast bulk of Confederate soldiers for obeying what they had every reason to believe were lawful orders to serve in the military.

But I find it ironic that those who claim that they are trying to preserve history are actually trying to preserve only a fraction of it and ignore the rest in an effort to give Lee, Davis, et al. a completely undeserved status. These statues weren't erected in the 1860s and 70s to honor or memorialize the southern leaders. They were put up in the 20th century as a monument to the Jim Crow era and the doctrine of white supremacy that was then flourishing under the color of "legal" segregation.

There is nothing to honor about the Confederacy other than the bravery of a lot of men who served and many of whom died. You can honor that by appropriate markers on battlefields and cemeteries. The Confederacy killed off much of an entire generation of Southern men and destroyed much of the region's infrastructure, putting it even farther behind the north. It was an utter failure politically, economically, legally, morally, and, within four years, militarily. There is certainly nothing to honor about men whose every public writing and utterance shows their complete dedication to the cause of perpetuating slavery as a legal and desirable institution in those states.

The references to Hitler and Tojo are quite apt. We are now about the same length of time after World War II as the era in which the southern statues were erected, but there is absolutely no movement in either Germany or Japan to put up statues of Nazi or Japanese leaders as a tribute or commemoration of the country itself. There are memorials at Hiroshima for the victims, and there are memorials at concentration camps but the people of Germany and Japan have made a conscious decision to put that era behind them and not to stir up old wounds.

They are still fond of Alexander in Greece, Napoleon in France, and Kamehameha I in Hawaii.

silverscreenselect wrote:The Confederacy killed off much of an entire generation of Southern men and destroyed much of the region's infrastructure, putting it even farther behind the north.

Um, that would be the Union soldiers and their immoral leaders, one who was elected president and is still on our currency, that did that.

My grandpappy called it by it's correct name:

Spoiler

The War of Northern Aggression

One thing that we all should be able to agree on is how to handle Democrat Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia. The man was a TPTB in the Ku Klux Klan within living memory.

I realize that everything in West Virginia is named for him but all those names should be changed and any statues of him should be removed.

Any and all Democrat office holders and so forth (Ahem, Hillary) should be asked to disavow their interactions and so forth with him.

This one is easy for everybody.

Spock wrote:One thing that we all should be able to agree on is how to handle Democrat Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia. The man was a TPTB in the Ku Klux Klan within living memory.

I realize that everything in West Virginia is named for him but all those names should be changed and any statues of him should be removed.

Any and all Democrat office holders and so forth (Ahem, Hillary) should be asked to disavow their interactions and so forth with him.

This one is easy for everybody.

Robert Byrd is commemorated is West Virginia despite his history with the KKK. He later called that membership "the greatest mistake I ever made" and renounced his racist past. He did much more with his life afterward, much of it to the benefit of the entire country.

Leaders of the Confederacy, on the other hand, are venerated because of their efforts to preserve the rights of their fellow Southerners to continue to hold other human beings in chattel servitude. Or is there something else in the backgrounds of, say, Jefferson Davis and Stonewall Jackson that made them worthy of receiving honor and respect in public fora? --Bob

Bob78164 wrote:Leaders of the Confederacy, on the other hand, are venerated because of their efforts to preserve the rights of their fellow Southerners to continue to hold other human beings in chattel servitude. Or is there something else in the backgrounds of, say, Jefferson Davis and Stonewall Jackson that made them worthy of receiving honor and respect in public fora?

Did you intentionally omit General Lee?

Estonut wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:Leaders of the Confederacy, on the other hand, are venerated because of their efforts to preserve the rights of their fellow Southerners to continue to hold other human beings in chattel servitude. Or is there something else in the backgrounds of, say, Jefferson Davis and Stonewall Jackson that made them worthy of receiving honor and respect in public fora?

Did you intentionally omit General Lee?

Probably feels sorry for him since he was pulled from the UVA broadcast.

Bob78164 wrote:

BackInTex wrote:

elwoodblues wrote:I hate the argument that we are "erasing history." I don't know of anyone who learned history exclusively from flags or statues.

You just contradicted yourself. You admit that history is learned from numerous sources, including flags and statues.

Ask yourself, how many people know that the land that is Texas had been part of Spain solely because of Six Flags. I'd wager most. Or that that that some of the same land once belonged to France. Same. Or even that Texas used to be its own country.

You can hate the argument, but it is a valid one. But I agree, we are not "erasing" history, but hiding it.

Are you saying that we should build monuments honoring Joe McCarthy to be sure we don't forget him? Should we name schools after Adolf Hitler to preserve the memory of his acts?

Of course not. These monuments aren't intended merely to educate. They're intended to honor their subjects. I, for one, refuse to believe that the American people are so stupid that the only way they can remember the Confederacy's important figures is by relying on monuments expressly intended to honor them and their cause. --Bob

On a side note, I was reading a book not long ago, and had to stop to lmao when the author referenced "Hillary Rodham Clinton High School."