Berkeley Sociologist Studies the Ape People

[Spock]

I get a kick out of this genre-ie-Liberal academic visits and explains the Red States.

Those darn Red-Staters just won't vote the way that we think they should based on how we perceive their economic circumstances. See also-"What's the Matter with Kansas?"

https://www.amazon.com/Strangers-Their- ... nav-subnav

"Strangers in their Own Land:Anger and Mourning on the American Right"

Pull Quote-" Hochschild draws on her expert knowledge of the sociology of emotion to help us understand what it feels like to live in “red” America."

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

Flyover Nation: You Can't Run a Country You've Never Been To

[silvercamaro]

I think the author of this book must be jes' cute as a button. Bless her little heart!

[Bob78164]

Spock, I haven't read this book. Have you?

I'm guessing not. Because based on the Amazon blurb, it seems that the book takes the exact opposite of the tack that you criticize: "Strangers in Their Own Land goes beyond the commonplace liberal idea that these are people who have been duped into voting against their own interests. Instead, Hochschild finds lives ripped apart by stagnant wages, a loss of home, an elusive American dream — and political choices and views that make sense in the context of their lives."

So are you assuming that the author was condescending simply because she's from Berkeley? Or do you have actual information about the book's content? --Bob

[Bob78164]

Flyover Nation: You Can't Run a Country You've Never Been To

You can't heal a political divide if you're not willing to listen to those who disagree with you. And certainly not if you respond with reflexive mockery to those among your opponents who make the effort.

Or have you read the book and concluded on that basis that her attitude toward her political opponents is imperious? --Bob

[Bob78164]

I think the author of this book must be jes' cute as a button. Bless her little heart!

There's a picture of her on the page that Spock linked, so you can judge for yourself.

But as someone with a background (if memory serves) in journalism, I would hope that instead of responding with a content-free belittling comment (of someone whose accomplishments merit respect), you might actually look at what she wrote rather than assuming it's worthless, biased, or condescending merely because she's from Berkeley.

If my assumption is mistaken and you have formed your opinion based on actually having read the book, then I apologize. --Bob

[BackInTex]

Liberals don't understand the satisfaction of hard work, pride of being self sustaining, or the ignominy of having to rely on others for whatever reason.

What I find ironic is this quote: " the commonplace liberal idea that these are people who have been duped into voting against their own interests. " Those who have been duped into voting against their interests are the minorities and poor who think the government is the solution and have now, as a class, become dependents and slaves to the government. The folks are no longer free to live where they want or do has they wish. They have, like livestock, been domesticated and need someone to tend to them, maybe not everyday, but certainly during "winter".

I say "winter" because it is something that is tougher than "not winter", but something that is common, known, and foreseeable.

For those needing further understand should read this book:

Success & Morality: A Primer

[Bob78164]

Liberals don't understand the satisfaction of hard work, pride of being self sustaining, or the ignominy of having to rely on others for whatever reason.

You're painting with an awfully broad brush. As a liberal who has put in more than my share of 200-hour months, survived (and then ended) significant periods of unemployment based on my ability to find a market for my legal skills, and whose job security has always relied on the ability of others to generate enough business to keep me busy (a skill I have never managed to develop in myself), I think I have lived all of these values.

My understanding is that your politics are conservative and that most conservatives value individualism over tribalism. So why are you treating liberals as a monolithic tribe? --Bob

[BackInTex]

Liberals don't understand the satisfaction of hard work, pride of being self sustaining, or the ignominy of having to rely on others for whatever reason.

You're painting with an awfully broad brush. As a liberal who has put in more than my share of 200-hour months, survived (and then ended) significant periods of unemployment based on my ability to find a market for my legal skills, and whose job security has always relied on the ability of others to generate enough business to keep me busy (a skill I have never managed to develop in myself), I think I have lived all of these values.

My understanding is that your politics are conservative and that most conservatives value individualism over tribalism. So why are you treating liberals as a monolithic tribe? --Bob

We all paint with broad brushes at times. Some folks painted by me here may get the wrong tone or shade, I may even get the hue off a bit, but the book was about red vs. blue, Berkeley background vs. Thibodaux upbringing. Box A or box B.

You may have lived those values but you champion other values for other people with your politics. In my analogy you'd be a rancher.

[Bob78164]

Liberals don't understand the satisfaction of hard work, pride of being self sustaining, or the ignominy of having to rely on others for whatever reason.

You're painting with an awfully broad brush. As a liberal who has put in more than my share of 200-hour months, survived (and then ended) significant periods of unemployment based on my ability to find a market for my legal skills, and whose job security has always relied on the ability of others to generate enough business to keep me busy (a skill I have never managed to develop in myself), I think I have lived all of these values.

My understanding is that your politics are conservative and that most conservatives value individualism over tribalism. So why are you treating liberals as a monolithic tribe? --Bob

We all paint with broad brushes at times. Some folks painted by me here may get the wrong tone or shade, I may even get the hue off a bit, but the book was about red vs. blue, Berkeley background vs. Thibodaux upbringing. Box A or box B.

You may have lived those values but you champion other values for other people with your politics. In my analogy you'd be a rancher.

I don't think I champion different values. I think the policies I champion will lead to more self-sufficiency and liberty than the policies you prefer. In other words, I think that many of our goals are the same. Our differences (and they are profound) are the policies we think will get us there. --Bob

[BackInTex]

I don't think I champion different values. I think the policies I champion will lead to more self-sufficiency and liberty than the policies you prefer. In other words, I think that many of our goals are the same. Our differences (and they are profound) are the policies we think will get us there. --Bob

True. But I cannot understand how you think the policies you support can achieve those goals. A world where there are no losers is a world where there are no winners. In a world where there is no risk, there is no reward. In a world where there is reward for nothing, nothing will be accomplished.

[Bob78164]

I don't think I champion different values. I think the policies I champion will lead to more self-sufficiency and liberty than the policies you prefer. In other words, I think that many of our goals are the same. Our differences (and they are profound) are the policies we think will get us there. --Bob

True. But I cannot understand how you think the policies you support can achieve those goals. A world where there are no losers is a world where there are no winners. In a world where there is no risk, there is no reward. In a world where there is reward for nothing, nothing will be accomplished.

Because I disagree that the policies I support create a world in which there are no losers and no risk, or a world in which there is reward for nothing. --Bob

[BackInTex]

I don't think I champion different values. I think the policies I champion will lead to more self-sufficiency and liberty than the policies you prefer. In other words, I think that many of our goals are the same. Our differences (and they are profound) are the policies we think will get us there. --Bob

Because I disagree that the policies I support create a world in which there are no losers and no risk, or a world in which there is reward for nothing. --Bob

Seriously. We need to sit down and have a few beers. I'll be in CA 9/30-10/5. Will you be around?

Friday (9/30) we'll be San Diego and I'm thinking we'll (my oldest daughter who will be "in port" for 5 days) be going up to Yosemite/Sequoia for a few days, but I want her to spend a day seeing sites in LA, too, so one night we'll be in town.

[Bob78164]

Seriously. We need to sit down and have a few beers. I'll be in CA 9/30-10/5. Will you be around?

Friday (9/30) we'll be San Diego and I'm thinking we'll (my oldest daughter who will be "in port" for 5 days) be going up to Yosemite/Sequoia for a few days, but I want her to spend a day seeing sites in LA, too, so one night we'll be in town.

I've never learned to drink but I'd be happy to meet you and your family somewhere. Friday is Sparky's birthday but I have no other plans that weekend, though I usually play bridge in Orange County (I have a partner who lives in San Diego so we meet halfway) on Saturday afternoons. I'm within two months of starting a long trial so weekends are a lot better for me, but if it has to be during the week I can probably make it work. My e-mail is my user name here at Yahoo!. --Bob

[BackInTex]

Seriously. We need to sit down and have a few beers. I'll be in CA 9/30-10/5. Will you be around?

Friday (9/30) we'll be San Diego and I'm thinking we'll (my oldest daughter who will be "in port" for 5 days) be going up to Yosemite/Sequoia for a few days, but I want her to spend a day seeing sites in LA, too, so one night we'll be in town.

I've never learned to drink but I'd be happy to meet you and your family somewhere. Friday is Sparky's birthday but I have no other plans that weekend, though I usually play bridge in Orange County (I have a partner who lives in San Diego so we meet halfway) on Saturday afternoons. I'm within two months of starting a long trial so weekends are a lot better for me, but if it has to be during the week I can probably make it work. My e-mail is my user name here at Yahoo!. --Bob

I'll reach out as the dates get closer. Nothing is set except the start and end dates. Who else is in the area? PlacentiaSoccerMom (aka Julie and Jeff)...

[Bob78164]

Seriously. We need to sit down and have a few beers. I'll be in CA 9/30-10/5. Will you be around?

Friday (9/30) we'll be San Diego and I'm thinking we'll (my oldest daughter who will be "in port" for 5 days) be going up to Yosemite/Sequoia for a few days, but I want her to spend a day seeing sites in LA, too, so one night we'll be in town.

I've never learned to drink but I'd be happy to meet you and your family somewhere. Friday is Sparky's birthday but I have no other plans that weekend, though I usually play bridge in Orange County (I have a partner who lives in San Diego so we meet halfway) on Saturday afternoons. I'm within two months of starting a long trial so weekends are a lot better for me, but if it has to be during the week I can probably make it work. My e-mail is my user name here at Yahoo!. --Bob

I'll reach out as the dates get closer. Nothing is set except the start and end dates. Who else is in the area? PlacentiaSoccerMom (aka Julie and Jeff)...

thguy and uly off the top of my head. --Bob

[Estonut]

Liberals don't understand the satisfaction of hard work, pride of being self sustaining, or the ignominy of having to rely on others for whatever reason.

You're painting with an awfully broad brush. As a liberal who has put in more than my share of 200-hour months...

Are you serious? 200-hour months is hard work? That's a normal month for a lot of us. Try working 70 to 80 hours a week for 9 months straight.

[Spock]

Spock, I haven't read this book. Have you?

I'm guessing not. Because based on the Amazon blurb, it seems that the book takes the exact opposite of the tack that you criticize: "Strangers in Their Own Land goes beyond the commonplace liberal idea that these are people who have been duped into voting against their own interests. Instead, Hochschild finds lives ripped apart by stagnant wages, a loss of home, an elusive American dream — and political choices and views that make sense in the context of their lives."

So are you assuming that the author was condescending simply because she's from Berkeley? Or do you have actual information about the book's content? --Bob

I probably will read it-I do tend to get to these after awhile. I recently read "What's the matter with Kansas?" and I have "Hillbilly Elegy" towards the top of the list.

I submit that the subtitle of her book ("Anger and Mourning on the American Right") shows that she merely confirmed her biases during the "Research" of her book. She found exactly who she wanted to find.

Yesterday, I was at a very large farm show. My rough guess is that at least 75% of the tens of thousands of people there are on the conservative side of the spectrum (Does not mean they are voting for Trump). People of all ages were there and they were laughing and having a great time. Not much sign of "Anger and Mourning." Nor was there a sign of much politics there.

Same thing a couple of weeks ago-My dad took my kids to a steam thresher's show-100,000 people there on one day-again, probably 75% conservative-not much "Anger and Mourning" there.

I wonder which areas are more angry-your random inner-city ghetto or your random "Red" county?

I don't know if I have ever read a statement more condescending than "Hochschild draws on her expert knowledge of the sociology of emotion to help us understand what it feels like to live in “red” America.

She lives in a world and is writing for an audience that is so insulated from the vast majority of the land area of this country that they need to "Draw on her expert knowledge of the sociology of emotion" to even even begin to understand what it feels like to live in "Red" America.

[jarnon]

You're right, Spock. I have no concept of life in Middle America. (If I want to learn more, I'll ask you for a book recommendation.)

Closer to home, this week I joined a small group of Clinton supporters outnumbered by the pro-Trump crowd outside an event in a conservative suburb. We just yelled at one another and learned nothing about the other side.

Even closer, I live a few kilometers from West Philadelphia and interact with inner-city minorities all the time, but I don't understand them either.

A year ago, I spent a day with cousins in Jerusalem. They're ultra-Orthodox, a group that's often criticized for religious intolerance and sexism. Guess what? Their home life is just like ours!

[Bob78164]

I don't know if I have ever read a statement more condescending than "Hochschild draws on her expert knowledge of the sociology of emotion to help us understand what it feels like to live in “red” America.

That's Amazon's language, not the author's. --Bob

[Spock]

Once again-How condescending can you get-Even if the language is Amazon's they know their target market for this kind of work.

Their big selling point is that the author is reporting back to Panem (apparently, to the surprise of the reviewer) that she has grown to like some of the Ape People and that they are actually kind of like Americans-"people whose concerns are actually ones that all Americans share: the desire for community, the embrace of family, and hopes for their children."

And once again (to the apparent surprise of the reviewer)-that they (read half the country) are not duped into voting as they do, but that their political choices and views make sense in the context of their lives.

Also it is pretty tough to get away that her subtitle (Obviously, her words) indicates her inherent bias and the types of people she cherry-picked for the book.

[Spock]

The subtitle of her book ("Anger and Mourning on the American Right") obviously fits every leftwing meme this year-The Angry Trump voter etc. I think maybe the author traveled a little farther to find anger than she needed to.

Yesterday, while in line for a pancake breakfast-there were a large number (call it 120) of diesel mechanic students in their first or second year of study. 99% of them have a good job (that can't be outsourced) waiting for them when they finish their 2-year program.

I started mentally comparing them to a random 120-person tranche of sociology students at Berkeley. I wonder which of the 2 groups is more angry at the world? To ask the question is to answer it. Obviously, the sociology students are more angry.

I also submit that the diesel mechanics are less subject to "Group-think" than the Sociology students are and that you would find a far wider diversity of political opinions among the diesel mechanics in the heart of "Red America" than you would find in the "Blue" sociology students.

[Bob Juch]

The subtitle of her book ("Anger and Mourning on the American Right") obviously fits every leftwing meme this year-The Angry Trump voter etc. I think maybe the author traveled a little farther to find anger than she needed to.

Yesterday, while in line for a pancake breakfast-there were a large number (call it 120) of diesel mechanic students in their first or second year of study. 99% of them have a good job (that can't be outsourced) waiting for them when they finish their 2-year program.

I started mentally comparing them to a random 120-person tranche of sociology students at Berkeley. I wonder which of the 2 groups is more angry at the world? To ask the question is to answer it. Obviously, the sociology students are more angry.

I also submit that the diesel mechanics are less subject to "Group-think" than the Sociology students are and that you would find a far wider diversity of political opinions among the diesel mechanics in the heart of "Red America" than you would find in the "Blue" sociology students.

I have a sample of one diesel mechanic, my older step-son. He lives in rural Idaho and is your stereotypical Trump fanatic.

My sister was a Sociology student at Cal. I don't know her political opinions but her husband is a Republican.

[Spock]

I started wondering with all the focus this cycle on "The Angry Trump Voter" whatever happened with the Left-Wing meme-"If You Are Not Angry, You Are Not Paying Attention?"

Did we throw that away for this election cycle?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have been thinking about what Jarnon said.

"You're right, Spock. I have no concept of life in Middle America. (If I want to learn more, I'll ask you for a book recommendation.)"

Obviously, you haven't asked me, but my stream of consciousness is working on that whole area. It is kind of hard to come up with a book.

TMITSSS mentioned a book by Dana Loesch called "Flyover Nation: You Can't Run a Country You've Never Been To."

I love the premise of the book and the title and I am head over heels with the subtitle. However, it is not really the book that I wish it was. Take a look at it if you like.

Years ago, we had a discussion here about how most writers etc lean left. So a lot of the newspaper columnists across Middle America comment on life (as opposed to politics)here from a left-of-Center perspective.

It is hard to find non-elegaic (as opposed to mourning) writing on agriculture because the pace of change in increasing farm size has happened so quickly that you are almost left breathless-

Victor Davis Hanson's non-political commentaries on agriculture and life in California are kind of what I am looking for, but they tend to be very elegaic. The 40-acre almond farm that he grew up with and ran has disappeared and isn't coming back.

What I really like about his stuff is that he is intimately familiar with both "Red" and Blue" and looks at "Blue" from a "Red" perspective, which you don't often find-more common is the original book in this thread and so forth.

I keep circling back to Mike Rowe as the spokesman for Middle America with his focus on the trades and so forth. His foundation and blog and so forth works to promote education in the trades. I read him once in awhile when I think of it and I spent some ime on his website last night. I don't know if he is a Democrat or Republican and he seems very clear that he will support politicians that further his cause.

I am thinking about Hiram Drache as a non-elegaic chronicler of agriculture and will talk about him later.

[Spock]

Bob Juch>>>I have a sample of one diesel mechanic, my older step-son. He lives in rural Idaho and is your stereotypical Trump fanatic.<<<

Not sure what you mean by "stereotypical Trump Fanatic."

However, many on my side of the aisle view this woman, filmed at a campus protest, as a stereotypical Bernie/Hillary supporter.

NSFW-due to language issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANgl54duC0A

She starts at about 42 seconds, comes in again at 1 minute 28 seconds-with the real good stuff starting at 1 minute 40 seconds.