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Obviously, a different topic than the other thread.

We have all heard the heart-wrenching stories of those hiding in the bathroom. Been thinking about that some. Obviously, I don't know the layout of the bathroom. But, there was probably an opportunity for the victims to take the control of the situation at the door.

Omar had a long gun. That is awkward at close quarters. Put guys on either side of the door. Depending on how far he comes in-you might have an opportunity to either grab the gun barrel (It will be hot) or the shooter himself.

If he was right-handed, it would be very awkward for him to turn to the right to cover that wall-if he was left-handed, he has the same problem with the left wall. Whichever way he turns, the other wall guys have a chance to take him.

Worth a shot anyway, better than laying on the floor, just waiting for him to come in.

Spock wrote:Obviously, a different topic than the other thread.

We have all heard the heart-wrenching stories of those hiding in the bathroom. Been thinking about that some. Obviously, I don't know the layout of the bathroom. But, there was probably an opportunity for the victims to take the control of the situation at the door.

Easy to say when you're sitting at your keyboard on a sunny day and have nothing to do but think this over for a while after mulling all the news reports you've heard.

It's a bit different when you're actually hiding in the bathroom trying not to get shot, especially if it's dark, especially if you've had a few to drink.

That's why you have to take with a grain of salt all those grandiose statements from people who have never been in anything remotely resembling a dangerous situation about what they do, especially if they had a gun.

silverscreenselect wrote:

Spock wrote:Obviously, a different topic than the other thread.

We have all heard the heart-wrenching stories of those hiding in the bathroom. Been thinking about that some. Obviously, I don't know the layout of the bathroom. But, there was probably an opportunity for the victims to take the control of the situation at the door.

Easy to say when you're sitting at your keyboard on a sunny day and have nothing to do but think this over for a while after mulling all the news reports you've heard.

It's a bit different when you're actually hiding in the bathroom trying not to get shot, especially if it's dark, especially if you've had a few to drink.

That's why you have to take with a grain of salt all those grandiose statements from people who have never been in anything remotely resembling a dangerous situation about what they do, especially if they had a gun.

Not surprised that you responded as such-I basically predicted it word for word. Never really thought about it before, but using "Lessons Learned" from the Orlando situation-if I ever find myself in such a quandary, I will definitely hide closely on either side of a doorway.

Maybe we all need to at least think a little about what we might do in such a situation.

The situation in the bathroom was much worse than I thought from the standpoint of preserving any freedom of action. Came across stories about 10 to 12 people hiding in a stall. Lesson to ponder-if you are that jam-packed in a bathroom stall, you have absolutely no freedom of action for either escape or defense.

Came across another weird story that those in the bathroom handing over their phones to the shooter. How close were they to him? Apparently, he let some Black people go-How close did they get to him?

I spend a lot of time in gun free zones so I carry a small tactical flashlight. It's not much but it's something.

For what it's worth, I just got the book I've linked below on Amazon (It was free when I got it, but it's $2.99 now) The entire book is 170 pages long and I hadn't started it, but after Spock's post, I looked up what this guy suggests doing in an active shooter situation, if you can't escape:

Don't just lock your office door, barricade it, push a table, a desk, or file cablinet in front of the door. Then turn off all the lights and close all the window coverings. Stand to the side of the doorway away from the direction the door will open. If there are other people in the room with you, form an attack plan that includes everyone. Obviously, this only works if the door is solid. If it has a glass panel, forget about barricading it.

You may think that you are helpless, but two of the most imoportant tools that you have is [sic] your brain and the element of surprise. The last thing an active shooter or a terrorist expects is to be counterattacked by his victims ... The chances are that the shooter will try the door to the room you are in. If it's a stable door and it's barricaded , he may just walk on by. He may also fire through the door, which is why I told you to stand to the side. Either way, this is going to buy you time. Time for the first responders to get therre and time to be rescued. However, depending on the situation, sooner or later, one way or another; if the shooter has enough time, he is going to get in.

When an active shooter or terrorist bursts into a room, he isn't usually scanning left or right. He is looking straight ahead. Why? Because he is in target acquisition mode. ... He is focusing on the front sight of his weapon. That causes him to have "tunnel vision" which is the best way to shoot effectively. That tunnel vision makes the shooter vulnerable to attack from either side, or from behind, above, or below. ...

The shooter will be coming in from the light into the darkness, that's why you turn out the lights. It's going to take a few seconds for the gunman's eyes to adjust. If you have a flashlight, have someone shine it into his eyes. If you are in a room with windows that have no coverings, and it's sunny outside, throw something at the shooter's eyes. It could be a jacket, a shirt, blanket, a bunch of papers, anything. An object coming toward your eyes will make anyone flinch. It's instinctive to try to protect your eyes, your brain is hard-wired to do it. Even if the gunman is wearing a helmet, he will flinch, even for a second. That's all the time you need to take him down. Forget about the upper body, always go for the knees. A good solid blow or tackle to the knees will bring the shooter down to the floor. That's when you go to work in earnest.

Surviving the Threat: Terrorist Attacks, Mass Shootings, and Dangerous Situations

Here is the author's website with his bio and other books he's written (including some sci fi): http://www.antaeus-books.com/

silverscreenselect wrote:For what it's worth, I just got the book I've linked below on Amazon (It was free when I got it, but it's $2.99 now) The entire book is 170 pages long and I hadn't started it, but after Spock's post, I looked up what this guy suggests doing in an active shooter situation, if you can't escape:

Don't just lock your office door, barricade it, push a table, a desk, or file cablinet in front of the door. Then turn off all the lights and close all the window coverings. Stand to the side of the doorway away from the direction the door will open. If there are other people in the room with you, form an attack plan that includes everyone. Obviously, this only works if the door is solid. If it has a glass panel, forget about barricading it.

You may think that you are helpless, but two of the most imoportant tools that you have is [sic] your brain and the element of surprise. The last thing an active shooter or a terrorist expects is to be counterattacked by his victims ... The chances are that the shooter will try the door to the room you are in. If it's a stable door and it's barricaded , he may just walk on by. He may also fire through the door, which is why I told you to stand to the side. Either way, this is going to buy you time. Time for the first responders to get therre and time to be rescued. However, depending on the situation, sooner or later, one way or another; if the shooter has enough time, he is going to get in.

When an active shooter or terrorist bursts into a room, he isn't usually scanning left or right. He is looking straight ahead. Why? Because he is in target acquisition mode. ... He is focusing on the front sight of his weapon. That causes him to have "tunnel vision" which is the best way to shoot effectively. That tunnel vision makes the shooter vulnerable to attack from either side, or from behind, above, or below. ...

The shooter will be coming in from the light into the darkness, that's why you turn out the lights. It's going to take a few seconds for the gunman's eyes to adjust. If you have a flashlight, have someone shine it into his eyes. If you are in a room with windows that have no coverings, and it's sunny outside, throw something at the shooter's eyes. It could be a jacket, a shirt, blanket, a bunch of papers, anything. An object coming toward your eyes will make anyone flinch. It's instinctive to try to protect your eyes, your brain is hard-wired to do it. Even if the gunman is wearing a helmet, he will flinch, even for a second. That's all the time you need to take him down. Forget about the upper body, always go for the knees. A good solid blow or tackle to the knees will bring the shooter down to the floor. That's when you go to work in earnest.

Surviving the Threat: Terrorist Attacks, Mass Shootings, and Dangerous Situations

Here is the author's website with his bio and other books he's written (including some sci fi): http://www.antaeus-books.com/

We undergo yearly security training including what to do if we are caught in an active shooter situation. From what SSS posted, I'd wager that whoever put together the training has read that book.

silverscreenselect wrote:Surviving the Threat: Terrorist Attacks, Mass Shootings, and Dangerous Situations

Here is the author's website with his bio and other books he's written (including some sci fi): http://www.antaeus-books.com/

Both his Amazon blurb and his bio on his website start with this paragraph:

Antaeus was born in Jersey City, New Jersey. He now lives near Sarasota, Florida, in the USA with his wife. He is supervised by a cat named Barbie, (who thinks she's a princess).

There is nothing about his military/tactical background, just that he answers to a cat princess. Call me unimpressed.

I've undergone two 'active shooter' trainings in the last six months, and both of them were very similar to the above-referenced procedures. Basically, "Run, Hide, or Fight" are the best options - in that particular order, depending on the situation. I've decided to undergo training and get my concealed carry, while I still can.

earendel wrote:
We undergo yearly security training including what to do if we are caught in an active shooter situation. From what SSS posted, I'd wager that whoever put together the training has read that book.

I'd guess that it's the other way around. The guy who wrote this book probably used that type of training manual as a reference source.

silverscreenselect wrote:

earendel wrote:
We undergo yearly security training including what to do if we are caught in an active shooter situation. From what SSS posted, I'd wager that whoever put together the training has read that book.

I'd guess that it's the other way around. The guy who wrote this book probably used that type of training manual as a reference source.

We even have an annual computer module we have to take at Mecca on workplace violence and active shooters... the training material comes from some group out of Texas A&M (I think, I know it's some Texas university). Mine was due to be taken by next Monday, but I got it out of the way early on a dead Saturday night... eerily enough, the same night this happened.

lb13

We don't have such training in our workplace.

I think I'm going to suggest it.

I work in a large open are but am real close to both a stairwell and some conference rooms.

I'm ready for an active shooter in my office; my shotgun is within reach of my workstations.

I once walked in on a tactical situation in a bathroom.

Actually, it was more of a tactile situation.

tlynn78 wrote:I've undergone two 'active shooter' trainings in the last six months, and both of them were very similar to the above-referenced procedures. Basically, "Run, Hide, or Fight" are the best options - in that particular order, depending on the situation. I've decided to undergo training and get my concealed carry, while I still can.

I have my concealed carry permit and a purse with a zipper conveniently located so you can open the bag (impulse item, set me back a buck at the thrift store), sneak your weapon out of the hidden pocket, and shoot the bad guy. Couple major problems -- First, I passed the proficiency test to get the permit, but I was and remain a terrible shot with a pistol, and second, I'm not sure that I could actually shoot at a person. And what if I shot an innocent bystander? The instructor has a Level 2 class where you shoot at targets with human silhouettes on a timed course; I guess I should take it.
\

SportsFan68 wrote:

tlynn78 wrote:I've undergone two 'active shooter' trainings in the last six months, and both of them were very similar to the above-referenced procedures. Basically, "Run, Hide, or Fight" are the best options - in that particular order, depending on the situation. I've decided to undergo training and get my concealed carry, while I still can.

I have my concealed carry permit and a purse with a zipper conveniently located so you can open the bag (impulse item, set me back a buck at the thrift store), sneak your weapon out of the hidden pocket, and shoot the bad guy. Couple major problems -- First, I passed the proficiency test to get the permit, but I was and remain a terrible shot with a pistol, and second, I'm not sure that I could actually shoot at a person. And what if I shot an innocent bystander? The instructor has a Level 2 class where you shoot at targets with human silhouettes on a timed course; I guess I should take it.

Nah, there's so many better things to do! Let's go for a nice walk in the park instead!

Evil Squirrel wrote:

SportsFan68 wrote:

tlynn78 wrote:I've undergone two 'active shooter' trainings in the last six months, and both of them were very similar to the above-referenced procedures. Basically, "Run, Hide, or Fight" are the best options - in that particular order, depending on the situation. I've decided to undergo training and get my concealed carry, while I still can.

I have my concealed carry permit and a purse with a zipper conveniently located so you can open the bag (impulse item, set me back a buck at the thrift store), sneak your weapon out of the hidden pocket, and shoot the bad guy. Couple major problems -- First, I passed the proficiency test to get the permit, but I was and remain a terrible shot with a pistol, and second, I'm not sure that I could actually shoot at a person. And what if I shot an innocent bystander? The instructor has a Level 2 class where you shoot at targets with human silhouettes on a timed course; I guess I should take it.

Nah, there's so many better things to do! Let's go for a nice walk in the park instead!

Where mangy rodents are concerned, I bring my shotgun.

Evil Squirrel wrote:
Nah, there's so many better things to do! Let's go for a nice walk in the park instead!

We could go to the NSAS July 4 cookout. Its potluck

NSAS wrote:

Evil Squirrel wrote:
Nah, there's so many better things to do! Let's go for a nice walk in the park instead!

We could go to the NSAS July 4 cookout. Its potluck

What a great product! I had no idea!

smilergrogan wrote:I once walked in on a tactical situation in a bathroom.

Actually, it was more of a tactile situation.

Did he have a wide stance?

SportsFan68 wrote:

tlynn78 wrote:I've undergone two 'active shooter' trainings in the last six months, and both of them were very similar to the above-referenced procedures. Basically, "Run, Hide, or Fight" are the best options - in that particular order, depending on the situation. I've decided to undergo training and get my concealed carry, while I still can.

I have my concealed carry permit and a purse with a zipper conveniently located so you can open the bag (impulse item, set me back a buck at the thrift store), sneak your weapon out of the hidden pocket, and shoot the bad guy. Couple major problems -- First, I passed the proficiency test to get the permit, but I was and remain a terrible shot with a pistol, and second, I'm not sure that I could actually shoot at a person. And what if I shot an innocent bystander? The instructor has a Level 2 class where you shoot at targets with human silhouettes on a timed course; I guess I should take it.
\

Yes, the more you shoot, the better you'll be. If you want to be really sneaky, shoot through the purse.

SportsFan68 wrote:

tlynn78 wrote:I've undergone two 'active shooter' trainings in the last six months, and both of them were very similar to the above-referenced procedures. Basically, "Run, Hide, or Fight" are the best options - in that particular order, depending on the situation. I've decided to undergo training and get my concealed carry, while I still can.

I have my concealed carry permit and a purse with a zipper conveniently located so you can open the bag (impulse item, set me back a buck at the thrift store), sneak your weapon out of the hidden pocket, and shoot the bad guy. Couple major problems -- First, I passed the proficiency test to get the permit, but I was and remain a terrible shot with a pistol, and second, I'm not sure that I could actually shoot at a person. And what if I shot an innocent bystander? The instructor has a Level 2 class where you shoot at targets with human silhouettes on a timed course; I guess I should take it.
\

You definitely should. I have lots of target practicing set up.

I dunno why I bother to do this, but (oh, yeah, I guess I do):

About 35+ years ago I just missed being shot by what was reported at the time as a crazy person. Haven't I already told the board about this? Maybe not. Don't feel like searching.

I was on an Amtrak train. This one was possibly the Lake Shore Limited, which goes between Boston & Chicago, but may have been the train to NYC, as I was taking that one around 40 years ago too. I'm thinking it may indeed have been the NYC train as I remember the emergency stop being in Connecticut.

Anyway: This train possibly offered real food in a dining car, but I couldn't afford it. So I went into what they called the club car to survey what was available. The most appealing thing was a burrito, & boy, it was not very appealing. Had to be warmed in their microwave. And I'm very fond of real tacos & tamales & enchiladas, but you'll notice these are all masa (corn meal) products. Burritos are made with flour tortillas, & this was a bean burrito, & guaranteed to be unreal & very soggy.

So I passed on the choice, got nothing, left the club car. I believe my seat was only 1 car down.

Train comes to an abrupt stop. What we found out much later, in that era of no mobile internet (I may have already had internet access at work, but few did back then) but where we did have transistor radios, was that a person had gone into the club car maybe a minute after I left it, told all the people there not to move, & when a mother with a small child made some movement, he shot her. In the face. She died the next day, reports I was able to look up said.

A conductor, who was not armed in any way, & whose job was to collect tickets & remind people/wake them up when they reached their stop, chased this person into another car. At some point the shooter shot the conductor in the stomach, but the conductor was able to subdue him anyway. By that time the conductor or some other train personnel had probably radioed for help from other conductors/train personnel. The conductor did not have a weapon, but he did have a short-wave radio.

The train started up again, pulled into the next station so that the woman, who was alive at that time, & the conductor could be brought to a hospital & so that the shooter could be taken off.

We, the other passengers, learned in bits & pieces, very "unofficially", from train personnel what had happened.

I had to look up as much of the story as I could find in newspapers later. I never did find out what the shooter's motives were, other than to get money, which is what you presumed someone with a gun wanted at that time.


I have no doubt I would have been stupid or oblivious or whatever enough to make some small movement, & would have been shot, had I still been in the club car.

But I'm still here to annoy you all instead.

Nowadays, it would be presumed the shooter had accomplices, & the train would have been sequestered for days maybe, instead of the several hours it was at that time. Maybe they were looking for accomplices. They didn't tell us.

Despite there having already been mass shootings in America, most notably the Texas Tower shootings, no-one on the train headed for the train bathrooms, which, if you've ever been in one, you know are very tiny & can barely hold the person using it for the purpose for which it is intended, much less hold a crowd. There was no panicking. We were eventually told somehow what had happened but that "the matter was under control". We believed this, & apparently it was.