Changing the Subject

[silverscreenselect]

I thought we needed a change of pace today. Too much political Obamacare rhetoric.

What happens in America if you're a white adult, carrying an assault rifle, seemingly intoxicated, threatening bystanders, and refusing to put the gun down for 40 minutes when confronted by police?

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/ind ... n_car.html

What happens in America if you're a black 12-year-old, carrying an air pellet gun, threatening no one, and fail to put the gun down within two seconds after police show up?

http://nypost.com/2014/11/27/cops-relea ... -year-old/

[Jeemie]

Because basing an analysis on a very small sample size always leads one to make accurate conclusions.

Nice change of pace!

[Bob78164]

Because basing an analysis on a very small sample size always leads one to make accurate conclusions.

Nice change of pace!

Do you know many white families who make a point of teaching their kids how to respond to a police encounter so as to survive it?

You're right that SSS's post is illustrative rather than statistical. But it certainly accords with the perception of many people in this country. And in this case the perception itself is a problem. --Bob

[flockofseagulls104]

I thought we needed a change of pace today. Too much political Obamacare rhetoric.

What happens in America if you're a white adult, carrying an assault rifle, seemingly intoxicated, threatening bystanders, and refusing to put the gun down for 40 minutes when confronted by police?

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/ind ... n_car.html

What happens in America if you're a black 12-year-old, carrying an air pellet gun, threatening no one, and fail to put the gun down within two seconds after police show up?

http://nypost.com/2014/11/27/cops-relea ... -year-old/

Keep the faith brother. Keep pushing your narrative. Al Sharpton is proud of you.

[BackInTex]

Do you know many white families who make a point of teaching their kids how to respond to a police encounter so as to survive it?

Everyone in my circle, Bob. Everyone I hang with has or are teaching their children to respect others, especially those in authority, and absolutely uniformed peace officers.

Everyone in my circle has or are teaching their kids to respect and obey the law. No one in my circle has had a child assault a store owner while stealing cigars. No one in my circle has had a child arrested over 30 times.

Everyone in my circle includes several black families, too.

Who do you hang with, Bob?

[silverscreenselect]

Do you know many white families who make a point of teaching their kids how to respond to a police encounter so as to survive it?

Everyone in my circle, Bob. Everyone I hang with has or are teaching their children to respect others, especially those in authority, and absolutely uniformed peace officers.

Everyone in my circle has or are teaching their kids to respect and obey the law. No one in my circle has had a child assault a store owner while stealing cigars. No one in my circle has had a child arrested over 30 times.

Everyone in my circle includes several black families, too.

Who do you hang with, Bob?

Is this woman in your circle, BiT?

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/12/11/ ... ghter.html

[ghostjmf]

The kid with the pellet gun has me very sad every time I think of it. They've played the tape where the caller to 911 says the person with the gun is 20 years old. He was 12. The officer should certainly have been able to see he was 12. If the officer had taken the time to check at all. This officer was thrown off of another force, previously, but the force in Cleveland hadn't got around to checking his record.


There's another case which somehow didn't make the country-wide news when it happened where an extremely badly injured car accident victim knocked on someone's door for help. The person in the house called the police instead of the EMTs. The police shot & killed the accident victim. Needless to say, victim was black, everyone else wasn't.


Waiving even a toy gun around in public is not a good idea, but you should get some leeway if you're 12. And to the various people who point out that Michael Brown & Eric Garner had committed crimes, I quote various sources to repeat that stealing cigars & threatening a clerk, or selling loose cigarettes & not paying taxes on them are not considered crimes punishable by death if they're committed by white people.

[BackInTex]

Is this woman in your circle, BiT?

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/12/11/ ... ghter.html

We all know you don't have a valid position in the debate, but thanks for confirming it.

[silverscreenselect]

Is this woman in your circle, BiT?

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/12/11/ ... ghter.html

We all know you don't have a valid position in the debate, but thanks for confirming it.

Admittedly, I'm mixing two arguments here thanks to the opening you so graciously provided me, but you've often said on this Bored that one of the reason people should be carrying guns is to protect themselves from police overreaching. The nutcase in Michigan was ranting about that very same thing when he was waving his rifle around. So white people are taught on the one hand to respect police and how to react when confronted by police, but on the other that they'd better be carrying guns and prepared to protect themselves in case the police do something they shouldn't. It's seemingly a paradox, but not really, because you know, and I know and cops know and other white people know and other black people know that in most cases whites are going to be given every opportunity to justify their actions before the police take violent action. Blacks don't get that benefit of the doubt. In their case, doing anything "suspicious" might well be enough to get themselves shot, so it's no wonder many of them don't react well in situations such as that.

I know how close I came to getting shot when I reached for my wallet when I was robbed. If I'd been black and stopped late at night by police, I might have done the very same thing (especially if I was frightened). And I might well have been shot for it by the cops.

And here's some more from the article you didn't read:

However, her actions do undermine the popular mythology within gun culture that presumes that “open carry” supporters are almost automatically virtuous law-abiding gun owners rather than criminals in waiting.

When individuals view guns as the primary solution to their problems, be they real or imagined, it makes sense that some disturbed individuals can carry that logic to its deadly extreme. A person obsessed with brandishing firearms as their primary means of security, who lacks sufficient moral filters, can view that weapon as a means to bring about security by ending a contentious divorce.

Sure, not every open carry activist is jumping to solve their problems with a loaded gun, but Dunnachie’s actions, if true, could cast a shadow over the open carry movement. Would you feel safer in a Kroger store with a woman like her openly toting a rifle through the aisles? It’s a loaded question perhaps, but not a completely unfair one.

[BackInTex]

but you've often said on this Bored that one of the reason people should be carrying guns is to protect themselves from police overreaching.

I don't believe I've ever said that. I have stated that one reason people should be able to own guns is to provide a that check/balance to the government. I've never said specifically said police or said carry.

The nutcase in Michigan.....

If all you can find to support your positions are extreme nut cases where you apply their behavior with a broad brush across an entire movement then you've lost. So be it.

[Jeemie]

Because basing an analysis on a very small sample size always leads one to make accurate conclusions.

Nice change of pace!

Do you know many white families who make a point of teaching their kids how to respond to a police encounter so as to survive it?

You're right that SSS's post is illustrative rather than statistical. But it certainly accords with the perception of many people in this country. And in this case the perception itself is a problem. --Bob

And the perception will not be changed when the use of emotional arguments such as SSS' uphold the very perception we should be trying to change.

I do not applaud people for using poorly substantiated arguments...and neither should you.

[Jeemie]

Is this woman in your circle, BiT?

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/12/11/ ... ghter.html

We all know you don't have a valid position in the debate, but thanks for confirming it.

Admittedly, I'm mixing two arguments here thanks to the opening you so graciously provided me, but you've often said on this Bored that one of the reason people should be carrying guns is to protect themselves from police overreaching. The nutcase in Michigan was ranting about that very same thing when he was waving his rifle around. So white people are taught on the one hand to respect police and how to react when confronted by police, but on the other that they'd better be carrying guns and prepared to protect themselves in case the police do something they shouldn't. It's seemingly a paradox, but not really, because you know, and I know and cops know and other white people know and other black people know that in most cases whites are going to be given every opportunity to justify their actions before the police take violent action. Blacks don't get that benefit of the doubt. In their case, doing anything "suspicious" might well be enough to get themselves shot, so it's no wonder many of them don't react well in situations such as that.

I know how close I came to getting shot when I reached for my wallet when I was robbed. If I'd been black and stopped late at night by police, I might have done the very same thing (especially if I was frightened). And I might well have been shot for it by the cops.

And here's some more from the article you didn't read:

However, her actions do undermine the popular mythology within gun culture that presumes that “open carry” supporters are almost automatically virtuous law-abiding gun owners rather than criminals in waiting.

When individuals view guns as the primary solution to their problems, be they real or imagined, it makes sense that some disturbed individuals can carry that logic to its deadly extreme. A person obsessed with brandishing firearms as their primary means of security, who lacks sufficient moral filters, can view that weapon as a means to bring about security by ending a contentious divorce.

Sure, not every open carry activist is jumping to solve their problems with a loaded gun, but Dunnachie’s actions, if true, could cast a shadow over the open carry movement. Would you feel safer in a Kroger store with a woman like her openly toting a rifle through the aisles? It’s a loaded question perhaps, but not a completely unfair one.

Again- the guy in Michigan is one guy.

The woman in Texas is one woman.

Unless the argument by pro-carry supporters is that ALL pro-carry supporters are virtuous and law-abiding, then citing one or two examples undermines the popular mythology not at all.

Come on SSS...you're not that dumb...are you?

[Jeemie]

Is this woman in your circle, BiT?

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/12/11/ ... ghter.html

We all know you don't have a valid position in the debate, but thanks for confirming it.

Admittedly, I'm mixing two arguments here thanks to the opening you so graciously provided me, but you've often said on this Bored that one of the reason people should be carrying guns is to protect themselves from police overreaching. The nutcase in Michigan was ranting about that very same thing when he was waving his rifle around. So white people are taught on the one hand to respect police and how to react when confronted by police, but on the other that they'd better be carrying guns and prepared to protect themselves in case the police do something they shouldn't. It's seemingly a paradox, but not really, because you know, and I know and cops know and other white people know and other black people know that in most cases whites are going to be given every opportunity to justify their actions before the police take violent action. Blacks don't get that benefit of the doubt. In their case, doing anything "suspicious" might well be enough to get themselves shot, so it's no wonder many of them don't react well in situations such as that.

I know how close I came to getting shot when I reached for my wallet when I was robbed. If I'd been black and stopped late at night by police, I might have done the very same thing (especially if I was frightened). And I might well have been shot for it by the cops.

And here's some more from the article you didn't read:

However, her actions do undermine the popular mythology within gun culture that presumes that “open carry” supporters are almost automatically virtuous law-abiding gun owners rather than criminals in waiting.

When individuals view guns as the primary solution to their problems, be they real or imagined, it makes sense that some disturbed individuals can carry that logic to its deadly extreme. A person obsessed with brandishing firearms as their primary means of security, who lacks sufficient moral filters, can view that weapon as a means to bring about security by ending a contentious divorce.

Sure, not every open carry activist is jumping to solve their problems with a loaded gun, but Dunnachie’s actions, if true, could cast a shadow over the open carry movement. Would you feel safer in a Kroger store with a woman like her openly toting a rifle through the aisles? It’s a loaded question perhaps, but not a completely unfair one.

Again- the guy in Michigan is one guy.

The woman in Texas is one woman.

Unless the argument by pro-carry supporters is that ALL pro-carry supporters are virtuous and law-abiding, then citing one or two examples undermines the popular mythology not at all.

Come on SSS...you're not that dumb...are you?

[BackInTex]

Come on SSS...you're not that dumb...are you?

Rhetorical?

[silverscreenselect]

Again- the guy in Michigan is one guy.

The woman in Texas is one woman.

True, but there's a lot more of these. And it's the perception that's important, for both blacks and whites. The kid in Cleveland didn't last 40 minutes; he didn't even last 4 seconds. And an armed black man acting the same way in Kalamazoo wouldn't have lasted 40 minutes either. You know it, I know it, Bob Numbers knows it, and BiT knows it.

I've been stopped by police at night before, not for doing anything felonious but once because my proverbial taillight wasn't working and when I was in my 20s and in a neighborhood I probably shouldn't have been in after dark (I was young). I didn't feel afraid either time. I've also been pulled over for speeding and I didn't feel afraid then either.

I don't think there are very many black people who don't get somewhat nervous if and when they get stopped by police, even if they haven't done a thing. And if you get nervous, you might be perceived by the cops the wrong way. And that's a sad fact of life today.

[Bob78164]

Again- the guy in Michigan is one guy.

The woman in Texas is one woman.

True, but there's a lot more of these. And it's the perception that's important, for both blacks and whites. The kid in Cleveland didn't last 40 minutes; he didn't even last 4 seconds. And an armed black man acting the same way in Kalamazoo wouldn't have lasted 40 minutes either. You know it, I know it, Bob Numbers knows it, and BiT knows it.

I've been stopped by police at night before, not for doing anything felonious but once because my proverbial taillight wasn't working and when I was in my 20s and in a neighborhood I probably shouldn't have been in after dark (I was young). I didn't feel afraid either time. I've also been pulled over for speeding and I didn't feel afraid then either.

I don't think there are very many black people who don't get somewhat nervous if and when they get stopped by police, even if they haven't done a thing. And if you get nervous, you might be perceived by the cops the wrong way. And that's a sad fact of life today.

I will admit to a lack of experience. I have yet to be stopped for driving while white. --Bob

[Bob78164]

Because basing an analysis on a very small sample size always leads one to make accurate conclusions.

Nice change of pace!

Do you know many white families who make a point of teaching their kids how to respond to a police encounter so as to survive it?

You're right that SSS's post is illustrative rather than statistical. But it certainly accords with the perception of many people in this country. And in this case the perception itself is a problem. --Bob

And the perception will not be changed when the use of emotional arguments such as SSS' uphold the very perception we should be trying to change.

I do not applaud people for using poorly substantiated arguments...and neither should you.

There are some common sense measures that will help that I hope most of us can support. For example, allocating federal funds to purchase body cameras for police. The next step is for states and local governments to mandate their use whenever available.

Another step is to make absolutely clear that police are never justified in confiscating civilian film of an arrest or a police encounter on a public street. Any effort to do so should result in automatic discipline. --Bob

[ghostjmf]

I've been stopped for driving an old car while curly-haired (very curly-haired) in a town (Dartmouth, NH) where the only people who might not be WASPs allowed to drive through are the Dartmouth-attending, expensive-new-car-driving kids of very wealthy people.


Apparently the cop decided I was white enough, old enough & female enough to get a pass, which came in the form of a made-up traffic transgression (cutting someone off) that I don't believe they ticket for hardly anywhere. I didn't get a ticket for it either, just a warning.


I know the score, which is to agree with everything the officer says, & say I'll never do it again, even if I didn't do it in the 1st place. I once got stopped in Cambridge, MA for not stopping at a stop sign which wasn't there. It had been there before they redesigned the parking lot of the Porter Square shopping center, but isn't now. Probably should be, even with the curvy sidewalk that would make anybody stop there (which I had done), but isn't. I said "oh officer I didn't see it; I'll never do that again".


My sister once got stopped in our home town late at night. A suspicious person had been following her car, in their car, & she was very afraid. So she started making all kinds of then-illegal turns & so forth, hoping to attract the cops & thus scare away the follower. Turns out the follower, who pulled out their hidden police-flasher & pulled her over, was a cop.

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

What if you are a white man with a federal security clearance and a burglar and car thief lies about you having meth.

http://bit.ly/1Ak5tCf

David Hooks, the Georgia man killed in a SWAT raid on his East Dublin home in September, was shot in the head and back while face down on the ground, according to his family's attorney, Mitchell Shook, who cited EMS and hospital records as evidence. David Hooksfamily photo

As reported by WMEZ-TV:

"One was to the side of the head, the other, was in his back, the back of his left shoulder, based on the evidence we see, we believe that David Hooks was face down on the ground when he received those last two shots," says Shook.

Shook says they have not received the autopsy yet from the GBI.

As noted by Reason's Ed Krayewski, the raid was based on a tip from Rodney Garrett, a local meth addict who had just stolen a car from Hooks' property. According to the warrant, Garrett told police he removed a bag from the stolen vehicle believing it held cash, but instead discovered it was filled with meth. Apparently fearful he just robbed a local drug kingpin, he turned himself in because he "became scared for his safety."

[silverscreenselect]

What if you are a white man with a federal security clearance and a burglar and car thief lies about you having meth.

http://bit.ly/1Ak5tCf

You left a couple of details out, namely the fact that this man pulled a gun and confronted police with it.

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/david-hooks-raid/

Mr. Hooks, a 59-year-old businessman, sprang from his bed and picked up a firearm, then took a defensive stand to protect his wife and home from the intruders. As he exited his bedroom, the back door of the house was breached, and gun-wielding home invaders charged in.

So sometimes if you're an armed white man and confront the police they will shoot you and sometimes they will spend 40 minutes talking to you.

And sometimes if you're an unarmed 12-year-old black boy, they'll just shoot you in two seconds.

It certainly doesn't excuse what the police did in Georgia (and I'm kind of curious what type of official investigation is going to occur here), but it still doesn't change the fact that white people are far more likely to get the benefit of the doubt than black people when dealing with the police.

[Jeemie]

Again- the guy in Michigan is one guy.

The woman in Texas is one woman.

True, but there's a lot more of these. And it's the perception that's important, for both blacks and whites. The kid in Cleveland didn't last 40 minutes; he didn't even last 4 seconds. And an armed black man acting the same way in Kalamazoo wouldn't have lasted 40 minutes either. You know it, I know it, Bob Numbers knows it, and BiT knows it.

I've been stopped by police at night before, not for doing anything felonious but once because my proverbial taillight wasn't working and when I was in my 20s and in a neighborhood I probably shouldn't have been in after dark (I was young). I didn't feel afraid either time. I've also been pulled over for speeding and I didn't feel afraid then either.

I don't think there are very many black people who don't get somewhat nervous if and when they get stopped by police, even if they haven't done a thing. And if you get nervous, you might be perceived by the cops the wrong way. And that's a sad fact of life today.

No- I don't know it. And neither do you. You BELIEVE it. There's a HUGE difference.

Because no one's ever done an unbiased study to show it, with the proper control for as many other factors as they possibly can control.

Instead, people like you keep making emotional arguments based on anecdotal evidence and small sample sizes...thus fueling the very perception that needs to be changed.

[Jeemie]

but it still doesn't change the fact that white people are far more likely to get the benefit of the doubt than black people when dealing with the police.

When you provide stats instead of anecdotal evidence, I'll take your word for it.

Again- my problem isn't with your hypothesis...it's with your loose use of the word "fact".

That's the problem with this entire situation...it's so emotional that too many people believe their "beliefs" are "facts".

[Bob78164]

That's the problem with this entire situation...it's so emotional that too many people believe their "beliefs" are "facts".

Having a gun pointed at you or your loved ones tends to trigger emotions.

Better evidence would be nice. But on this subject, I really don't think it's necessary before we take action, and inaction in this case is just as much a decision as is action.

There's a reason "driving while black" has become a cliche. And that reason may be a perception, but it's fueled by a reality. So suggesting here that the issue is "perception" inspires me to paraphrase Lenoa Lansing from the final episode of The Newsroom: Police have a PR problem because they have an actual problem. --Bob

[Jeemie]

That's the problem with this entire situation...it's so emotional that too many people believe their "beliefs" are "facts".

Having a gun pointed at you or your loved ones tends to trigger emotions.

Better evidence would be nice. But on this subject, I really don't think it's necessary before we take action, and inaction in this case is just as much a decision as is action.

There's a reason "driving while black" has become a cliche. And that reason may be a perception, but it's fueled by a reality. So suggesting here that the issue is "perception" inspires me to paraphrase Lenoa Lansing from the final episode of The Newsroom: Police have a PR problem because they have an actual problem. --Bob

I wasn't suggesting inaction.

I was suggesting we stop making arguments based solely on belief.

And 'driving while black" is a totally different subject than "blacks get shot by cops more quickly than whites do".

For the former I believe there is enough evidence to suggest it is true.

For the latter there is, I believe, not.

Note how I state "I believe"...meaning I am open to correction.

But not via the use of anecdotes.

[BackInTex]

Having a gun pointed at you or your loved ones tends to trigger emotions.

Nice pun.

There's a reason "driving while black" has become a cliche. And that reason may be a perception, but it's fueled by a reality.

No, it is fueled by the same racism that says blacks can't perform at the same level as whites so we must give them extra points or consideration in acceptance to schools, scholarships, or government jobs. It is fueled by the agenda on the left to keep the blacks thinking they need their help, that they themselves are incapable of making a better life for themselves because whites are somehow responsible for their plight. It is fueled by the same fools who riot and cry foul when a thug is shot and automatically say the police are in the wrong.