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An Arizona firearms instructor who was teaching a nine-year-old girl how to fire an Uzi was killed when she lost control of the weapon as she was firing it and a bullet hit him in the head. The girl was using the gun with her parents' permission.

The shooting occurred at a firing range called Bullets and Burgers that advertises in the Las Vegas area but is located across the state line in Arizona. It advertises a wide variety of firearm adventures and a complimentary hamburger lunch with each adventure.

I can't think of any reason in the world why a nine-year-old girl needs to be firing an Uzi, and I wonder what sort of parents would let their kid out on the range to do this. I do feel sorry for the girl who's going to have to live with this the rest of her life.

I also feel there is some justice in the world after all. A man who thinks nothing of making it easier for a child to use a weapon like an Uzi finds out firsthand just what can happen. And no innocent bystanders were hurt. Arizona authorities are currently investigating.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1192 ... o-shooting

9-year-old eastern Iowa twins died after ATV crash

Posted: Tuesday, August 5, 2014 5:49 am

9-year-old eastern Iowa twins died after ATV crash

MOUNT VERNON, Iowa (AP) — Eastern Iowa authorities say the two boys fatally injured in an all-terrain vehicle accident were 9-year-old twins.

The Linn County Sheriff’s Office identified the boys as Colton Wayne and Clayton Alan Novak.

The accident was reported a little before 12:15 p.m. Monday. It occurred in a creek that ran through a pasture on a property about two miles west of Mount Vernon.

Authorities say the boys were flown to St. Luke’s Hospital in Cedar Rapids and were pronounced dead there.

The accident is being investigated.

silverscreenselect wrote:I also feel there is some justice in the world after all. A man who thinks nothing of making it easier for a child to use a weapon like an Uzi finds out firsthand just what can happen. And no innocent bystanders were hurt. Arizona authorities are currently investigating.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1192 ... o-shooting

I'm reminded of a saying from Oath of Fealty by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle: Think of it as evolution in action. --Bob

silverscreenselect wrote:An Arizona firearms instructor who was teaching a nine-year-old girl how to fire an Uzi was killed when she lost control of the weapon as she was firing it and a bullet hit him in the head. The girl was using the gun with her parents' permission.

The shooting occurred at a firing range called Bullets and Burgers that advertises in the Las Vegas area but is located across the state line in Arizona. It advertises a wide variety of firearm adventures and a complimentary hamburger lunch with each adventure.

I can't think of any reason in the world why a nine-year-old girl needs to be firing an Uzi, and I wonder what sort of parents would let their kid out on the range to do this. I do feel sorry for the girl who's going to have to live with this the rest of her life.

I also feel there is some justice in the world after all. A man who thinks nothing of making it easier for a child to use a weapon like an Uzi finds out firsthand just what can happen. And no innocent bystanders were hurt. Arizona authorities are currently investigating.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1192 ... o-shooting

I was with you for the first 3 paragraphs. How do you know the instructor "thought nothing" about going with her parents' wishes? For all we know, he turned them down until his job was threatened. He certainly didn't deserve to die for this, as you imply.

Further, this happened on Monday. There have been hundreds (perhaps thousands) of articles written about this. You had to wait until now to link to the article you chose? The one where your chosen expert states facts such as, "when a bullet enters the human body, that body is very likely to die," despite the fact that he knows from personal experience that is not true. All you had to do was post any one of the myriad articles which conclude that a nine-year-old should never be allowed to handle such a powerful weapon, regardless of parental wishes.

Estonut wrote: How do you know the instructor "thought nothing" about going with her parents' wishes? For all we know, he turned them down until his job was threatened. He certainly didn't deserve to die for this, as you imply.

You had to wait until now to link to the article you chose? The one where your chosen expert states facts such as, "when a bullet enters the human body, that body is very likely to die," despite the fact that he knows from personal experience that is not true. All you had to do was post any one of the myriad articles which conclude that a nine-year-old should never be allowed to handle such a powerful weapon, regardless of parental wishes.

You're right that I don't know what went through this guy's mind. I do know that he made it easier for people in general to shoot and kill other innocent people (by working at a place whose main selling point was that shooting powerful guns in an entertaining thing to do) and for this girl in particular to be in a position to do so. I view his death the same as I would if I'd read about a drunk driver who smashed his car into a tree and killed himself. In both cases, it's not necessarily an inherently evil person but one who knew full well what could happen but didn't think enough about the possible consequences of his actions to avoid doing them. Far better him than someone else.

silverscreenselect wrote: Far better him than someone else.

Far better him than even Reginald and Jonathan Carr, in your world. Far better this man died trying to teach people to safely defend themselves with firearms than those people he is trying to help train folks to be able to defend themselves against.

In your world no one should have guns, but in reality they do, so in your reality only the Reginald and Jonathan Carrs would have them. Their victims do not, in your world, deserve the right to be able to effectively defend themselves. And in your world, anyone... anyone, who would help the potential victims to be prepared to effectively defend themselves should die.

But not Reginald and Jonathan Carr. It is far better they not die.

BackInTex wrote:

silverscreenselect wrote: Far better him than someone else.

Far better him than even Reginald and Jonathan Carr, in your world. Far better this man died trying to teach people to safely defend themselves with firearms than those people he is trying to help train folks to be able to defend themselves against.

This man died as a result of trying to promote shooting off very large and very powerful automatic weapons as a form of a family amusement park. Bullets and Burgers isn't about teaching people how to safely use guns for self defense; it's about having a good time. People who live near Bullets and Burgers have been trying to get the place closed for years for fear that something just like what happened this week might have resulted in a stray bullet hitting a family member of theirs. I don't see how putting a machine gun in the hands of a nine year old is teaching anyone to safely defend themselves. The most valuable service he performed in his entire life was to serve as a demonstration of why places like Bullets and Burgers aren't a good idea.

silverscreenselect wrote:The most valuable service he performed in his entire life was to serve as a demonstration of why places like Bullets and Burgers aren't a good idea.

Really? The man was a husband, a father, a retired Army general. And you not only think but have the nerve to say that?

Someone who likely put his life on the line to protect your freedoms, and you say that. You're pathetic. Really.

I realize he probably never transported a minor, unbeknownst to her parents, across state lines for an abortion, but I have to think his service in the military has some value, even to you.

I do certainly think it was a bit foolish to allow the girl to fire an automatic weapon with seemingly so little safeguards. I've fired several automatic weapons and they are very hard to control if you fire more than a 3-round burst. I've never fired an uzi so I don't know what the kick-back is like, but an M-16 with a longer barrel want's to ride up on you when firing off 10-20 round on automatic. I would imagine a shorter barreled gun would be more so.

BackInTex wrote: Really? The man was a husband, a father, a retired Army general. And you not only think but have the nerve to say that?

Not that it changes anything, but the deceased "general" was actually a staff sergeant.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/28/c ... -his-wife/

I think you should try to find more accurate sources.
I'm an expert on this subject because I once shot a machine gun in Las Vegas for entertainment at a bachelor party.

BackInTex wrote:

silverscreenselect wrote: Really? The man was a husband, a father, a retired Army general. And you not only think but have the nerve to say that?

Someone who likely put his life on the line to protect your freedoms, and you say that. You're pathetic. Really.

The prisons are filled with people who used to be in the military and are husbands and fathers. If that Uzi had kicked a little differently in that girl's hands, he'd have been responsible for her death. Someone who really cared about promoting the safe use of firearms would not be participating in that three ring circus called Bullets and Burgers and allowing a nine-year-old to fire an automatic burst.

And let's pose a question. Suppose it had happened the other way and the girl had managed to shoot and kill herself. Who, if anyone, do you think should have been prosecuted for manslaughter or any other crime? The instructor? The gun range owner? The parents? Or is this just one of those unfortunate things that just happens sometimes when people exercise their second amendment rights.

And people like you don't care how many nine-year-olds die or whether you put your own family in danger so you can engage in your macho fantasies. You're pathetic. Really.

Okay people, everything else aside, if you can do that.

Where were the parents? They signed paperwork that allowed a 9 y.o to do this?

Why?

christie1111 wrote:Okay people, everything else aside, if you can do that.

Where were the parents? They signed paperwork that allowed a 9 y.o to do this?

Why?

This company operated excursions from Las Vegas hotels on buses to the site. Their website said the minimum age was 8 years old and that those 8-17 must be accompanied by a parent or guardian at all times.

Samuel Shepard, an 18-year-old teen died Friday in a Lamborghini crash that left the high-powered sports car torn to bits.


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1442505/teen-d ... Ia5G06j.99

christie1111 wrote:Okay people, everything else aside, if you can do that.

Where were the parents? They signed paperwork that allowed a 9 y.o to do this?

Why?

You may have seen the video leading up to the incident on the Web. The parents were operating the video. --Bob

themanintheseersuckersuit wrote:Samuel Shepard, an 18-year-old teen died Friday in a Lamborghini crash that left the high-powered sports car torn to bits.


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1442505/teen-d ... Ia5G06j.99

If there's a tourist attraction that allows nine-year-olds to drive Lamborghinis at full speed, I'd want it shut down as well, but at least the people that live next to it probably wouldn't have to worry about a stray Lamborghini hitting them in their back yard.

TheConfessor wrote: Not that it changes anything, but the deceased "general" was actually a staff sergeant.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/28/c ... -his-wife/

I think you should try to find more accurate sources.

I found a lot of sites referring to him as "retired general". They mostly seemed to be the same copied text. I really don't know what he was. The picture you posted is not detailed enough to see the rank insignias. Like you said, it really doesn't matter.

TheConfessor wrote:I'm an expert on this subject because I once shot a machine gun in Las Vegas for entertainment at a bachelor party.

I hear there's an opening for an instructor. Maybe you should apply.

silverscreenselect wrote:

themanintheseersuckersuit wrote:Samuel Shepard, an 18-year-old teen died Friday in a Lamborghini crash that left the high-powered sports car torn to bits.


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1442505/teen-d ... Ia5G06j.99

If there's a tourist attraction that allows nine-year-olds to drive Lamborghinis at full speed, I'd want it shut down as well, but at least the people that live next to it probably wouldn't have to worry about a stray Lamborghini hitting them in their back yard.

So you are O.K. with the concept if it is out of the way, maybe indoors, and there is no risk outside of the immediate range area? No. You aren't O.K. with it until they don't exist. Stick to your agenda.

BackInTex wrote: So you are O.K. with the concept if it is out of the way, maybe indoors, and there is no risk outside of the immediate range area? No. You aren't O.K. with it until they don't exist. Stick to your agenda.

Bullets and Burgers is a bad idea period. It would be the equivalent of a South American country offering cruise passengers a tour of a cocaine factory, complete with free samples. Leaving aside the safety issues, it induces people to buy as large and powerful a gun as possible, because firing it off is fun and exciting. It encourages nine-year-old children to fire guns because they're fun and exciting. What about the kids who go to a place like this and then decide, once they get home, to take daddy's gun into the back yard for some target practice.

You're in favor of those laws that require pregnant teenagers to receive "counseling" by showing them pictures of in vitro fetuses to help them make a decision about getting an abortion. How about requiring gun shops to show that video (the full version showing what happens after the guy is shot, not the edited version) to everyone who's going to buy a gun or go out on a test range? I'm sure there's other similar footage available you could make into a nifty montage.

silverscreenselect wrote: How about requiring gun shops to show that video (the full version showing what happens after the guy is shot, not the edited version) to everyone who's going to buy a gun or go out on a test range? I'm sure there's other similar footage available you could make into a nifty montage.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept. Guns can be dangerous if not properly handled, or respected. I think folks should see the gross videos I had to watch, back in the day, to get my driver's license.

BackInTex wrote: I found a lot of sites referring to him as "retired general". They mostly seemed to be the same copied text. I really don't know what he was.

I saw the same flawed article, but I used my common sense filter. How many 39 year old retired Army generals are there?

TheConfessor wrote:

BackInTex wrote: I found a lot of sites referring to him as "retired general". They mostly seemed to be the same copied text. I really don't know what he was.

I saw the same flawed article, but I used my common sense filter. How many 39 year old retired Army generals are there?

I wasn't really that interested in reconciling all the details. I didn't notice the age, but that might have triggered a second though on his rank. The picture on another site shows him wearing a Specialist insignia. I can't tell whether it is a 4 or 5. May be an older picture before he made Staff Sgt.

I too have fired a fully automatic AK47, and such weapons have no place in the hand of someone nine years old. They are simply too powerful to control. I thought I was doing great, until the instructor pointed out that only my first three shots, as someone mentioned earlier, were anywhere near the intended target. The final shot ended up something like six feet up the hill.

I'm sorry the instructor died. I'm sure he was a good guy and undoubtedly doing his part to put the idea of firearm safety into some young heads.

Actually, I believe that automatic weapons have no place anywhere in the world. The only reason they were invented, and the reason they're still being manufactured, is to kill people. Not sports, not competition, not hunting, not nothing except to kill people. Nothing terrifies me like a movie depicting some of the first Gatling guns killing people here in the U.S. Now they're in the hands of terrorists and mega-rich, mega-powerful drug dealers. And local cops, who do not face terrorists and mega-rich, mega-powerful drug dealers. It's insane.

SportsFan68 wrote:I too have fired a fully automatic AK47, and such weapons have no place in the hand of someone nine years old. They are simply too powerful to control. I thought I was doing great, until the instructor pointed out that only my first three shots, as someone mentioned earlier, were anywhere near the intended target. The final shot ended up something like six feet up the hill.

I'm sorry the instructor died. I'm sure he was a good guy and undoubtedly doing his part to put the idea of firearm safety into some young heads.

Actually, I believe that automatic weapons have no place anywhere in the world. The only reason they were invented, and the reason they're still being manufactured, is to kill people. Not sports, not competition, not hunting, not nothing except to kill people. Nothing terrifies me like a movie depicting some of the first Gatling guns killing people here in the U.S. Now they're in the hands of terrorists and mega-rich, mega-powerful drug dealers. And local cops, who do not face terrorists and mega-rich, mega-powerful drug dealers. It's insane.

Are you trying to scare me, Sprotsie Baby?

I am as gun-nutty as they come- have started a collection of my own after learning a lot from my father in law these past few years, who taught us all how to shoot and be safe with guns.

I definitely believe the in the Charlton Heston "from my cold dead hands" credo.

And yet I have to ask you honestly, BiT:

*Do you really believe the main business selling point of Guns and Burgers is to teach people how to defend themselves?
*Do you really believe you need an Uzi for self defense?

Or is it that you just can't resist the juicy bait SSS threw into the water to hook you?

Me...personally...I am with Sprots on this one...automatic weapons are terrible for home defense- you are WAY more likely to hit an unintended target than the intruder you are trying to hit.

Especially since in a home defense situation, even with good training, most people are still going to be rushed and panicky anyway.

Give me a gun you can control and aim reasonably well, any time, rather than a spray and pray machine.