Opinions - Education types and all

[jaybee]

I need a soundingboard for a recent event at my son's school. Admittingly, I am VERY PO'd at the moment and could use a second (or third, or fourth) opinion.

Here's the deal:

Two days ago, my 15 year old son (MBee) overheard some kids talking in the high school hallway while he was walking between classes. Overheard conversation was briefly this - one kid was telling another kid that they'd heard a rumor that someone was going to bring a gun to school on Friday the 13th. MBee didn't see who was talking and didn't know who they were. Didn't really think too much of it. He didn't say anything to us but did mention it to one of his friends while playing an on-line game later that evening. The friend felt that it was something that should be mentioned and told a teacher at the end of the day yesterday.

This morning, two assistant principles and a security guard were waiting for MBee at the bus drop-off point. Since MBee rides to school in a car with his older brother, nothing happened there.

They came for MBee at his first class and took him to the office. This was first thing in the morning. At noon, we got a message from the school telling us that MBee had been called to the office in connection with a gun incident at school. MrsJayBee returned the call within a few minutes and was told that MBee had heard a rumor, that they asked him a few questions and that he was not in trouble. No problem there.

When MBee got home this afternoon, we found out that he had been questioned in the office for over an hour, had a full pat-down body search, questioned at length on his drug use, drug use in our home, gun ownership etc. They even went off on a tangent when they asked him if he ever killed anything in a video game (He says he pointed it out that even Mario kills things). All in all, MBee says the whole time they treated him like he was part of a plot to bring a gun to school.

My take on this:

1. This got way out of hand. This should have been a simple ask MBee what he knew about the gun rumor and end it at that.
2. We have reviewed the school policy on questioning students and it's pretty obvious to us that he was treated as if someone claimed that HE was planning on bring a gun to school. And no, nobody said that.
3. We can find no justification for the extended interrogation plus we feel that if our son was suspected of a criminal activity like bringing a gun to school then his parents should have been notified immediately, not several hours after the fact.
4. FWIW, MBee is an honor student (like his two brothers) and has never been in any form of trouble at school.
5. So far, the biggest lesson learned from all this is that MBee will be keeping his mouth shut no matter what he may hear - not a good way to lessen the chance of school violence - which is the reason for all this.

School is out for a four day weekend, plus I'm working 20 hour days all of next week so I have a cooling-off period before we can resolve this face to face the week after next. Currently, both MrsJayBee and I feel that our son is owed an apology for the way this was handled and will settle for nothing less. While I understand how serious school violence can be and how important it is to keep gun violence in schools from happening, I think this event was handled completely wrong. My son has learned only the wrong lessons from all this and we feel that the school not only needs to make things right with MBee but also needs to change it's zero-tolerance based policy.

BTW, did I mention that I'm really PO'd?

Thoughts?

[christie1111]

This is outrageous.

Cooling off is good, but make a list of what was done wrong while it is still clear and fresh.

Yes, excellent way to make sure no one ever mentions such an overheard conversation again.

And parents should always be present during such a situation.

Seriously!

[mrkelley23]

When you have your face-to-face, make sure you make it clear that you are tremendously upset that your wife was lied to on the phone. "Asked a few questions" is not in any way the same as questioned at length about things that don't concern the incident or the school.

The bad news: School authorities have been given wide latitude, much more than police have, for instance, in trying to deal with gun violence in schools. It's an overcompensation for Columbine. Because of that, what school authorities did would probably be backed up by the courts, which removes a strong weapon from your arsenal of veiled threats. If you focus on how YOU (meaning you and your wife) were treated by the school, you are much more likely to get the results you want.

Bottom line, trying to put myself in the place of a principal I don't much care for in reading your description, your son should have insisted, especially after hearing that his friend was disturbed by the rumor, on telling the authorities himself. The friend should have insisted he tell, and then if he didn't, gone himself. Because the reason for the overreaction is that the principal was probably asking him-or-herself after hearing the rumor, "why didn't he come to us himself? Could he be involved?"

I can assure you that if your son's school is anything like mine, they have it drilled into their heads from day 1 to report ANY kind of rumor involving guns. Immediately. Even if they don't know who it was, or any other details. What seems like nothing to you and your wife does not seem like nothing to people responsible for several hundred kids.

[christie1111]

Teach, it is great for you to give that perspective.

One Q for you is when they should have called the parents to come in?

[marriedmefliesfree]

I would point out that kids will be less likely to share information like this with teachers if they know it will mean that they will be treated suspiciously. Of course their job is to get to the bottom of rumors like these and take all necessary precautions...you just never know, you know? But I would think that fostering an environment where kids feel safe enough to talk is really, really important.

[jaybee]

Teach, it is great for you to give that perspective.

One Q for you is when they should have called the parents to come in?

That is one of both my and my wifes gripes. We understand how serious a gun in school story can be and that any rumor must be investigated. We *think* that the school may have felt that MBee's friend and MBee were the original gun planners and that the friend chickened out and told a teacher - making up the other people to hide their involvment. We understand how the school could think that way. However - at the moment that the school made that assumption (if they did), then that is the time that the parents should be called in.

[jaybee]

Bottom line, trying to put myself in the place of a principal I don't much care for in reading your description, your son should have insisted, especially after hearing that his friend was disturbed by the rumor, on telling the authorities himself. The friend should have insisted he tell, and then if he didn't, gone himself. Because the reason for the overreaction is that the principal was probably asking him-or-herself after hearing the rumor, "why didn't he come to us himself? Could he be involved?"

.

To expand and clarify: We have had no complaints with either assisatant principle, in fact one is also a teacher well liked by my oldest son. My son did not know that his friend had talked to a teacher, or even that his friend felt that the rumor was anything that should be passed on to the school administration. MBee only knew that something was going on when he was brought to the office this morning. Since he had only mentioned what he heard to the one friend, it was no mystery to him how his involvment in the story came out. He's not mad at the friend or anything like that. In fact, mom and I are more upset than he is, although he feels that he was not treated right.

[mrkelley23]

Teach, it is great for you to give that perspective.

One Q for you is when they should have called the parents to come in?

I personally think the parents should have been called the evening before, let alone when they called the kid down to the office.

The ways of principals are wild and weird.

Just trying to play devil's advocate.

[mrkelley23]

Teach, it is great for you to give that perspective.

One Q for you is when they should have called the parents to come in?

That is one of both my and my wifes gripes. We understand how serious a gun in school story can be and that any rumor must be investigated. We *think* that the school may have felt that MBee's friend and MBee were the original gun planners and that the friend chickened out and told a teacher - making up the other people to hide their involvment. We understand how the school could think that way. However - at the moment that the school made that assumption (if they did), then that is the time that the parents should be called in.

I agree. And honestly, ruthlessly, that may be something that's an overreaction to Columbine as well. Because the Columbine parents struck me, at least at the time, as the type who would've sued the school system if they'd tried to do anything about their kids beforehand. That may be unfair. But if I truly believed that, then I might call the kid in for a grilling before I let the parents know.

[mrkelley23]

Bottom line, trying to put myself in the place of a principal I don't much care for in reading your description, your son should have insisted, especially after hearing that his friend was disturbed by the rumor, on telling the authorities himself. The friend should have insisted he tell, and then if he didn't, gone himself. Because the reason for the overreaction is that the principal was probably asking him-or-herself after hearing the rumor, "why didn't he come to us himself? Could he be involved?"

.

To expand and clarify: We have had no complaints with either assisatant principle, in fact one is also a teacher well liked by my oldest son. My son did not know that his friend had talked to a teacher, or even that his friend felt that the rumor was anything that should be passed on to the school administration. MBee only knew that something was going on when he was brought to the office this morning. Since he had only mentioned what he heard to the one friend, it was no mystery to him how his involvment in the story came out. He's not mad at the friend or anything like that. In fact, mom and I are more upset than he is, although he feels that he was not treated right.

I'm glad you've got the time to cool down. This way you might get a decent reaction from the people. If I were in your shoes, I'm afraid I would've charged down there, demanding apologies and threatening lawsuits, which would've accomplished exactly nothing.

[jaybee]

Bottom line, trying to put myself in the place of a principal I don't much care for in reading your description, your son should have insisted, especially after hearing that his friend was disturbed by the rumor, on telling the authorities himself. The friend should have insisted he tell, and then if he didn't, gone himself. Because the reason for the overreaction is that the principal was probably asking him-or-herself after hearing the rumor, "why didn't he come to us himself? Could he be involved?"

.

To expand and clarify: We have had no complaints with either assisatant principle, in fact one is also a teacher well liked by my oldest son. My son did not know that his friend had talked to a teacher, or even that his friend felt that the rumor was anything that should be passed on to the school administration. MBee only knew that something was going on when he was brought to the office this morning. Since he had only mentioned what he heard to the one friend, it was no mystery to him how his involvment in the story came out. He's not mad at the friend or anything like that. In fact, mom and I are more upset than he is, although he feels that he was not treated right.

I'm glad you've got the time to cool down. This way you might get a decent reaction from the people. If I were in your shoes, I'm afraid I would've charged down there, demanding apologies and threatening lawsuits, which would've accomplished exactly nothing.

Well, truth be known, the phrase, "Carve them a new a$$hole did pass my lips"

[christie1111]

Teach, it is great for you to give that perspective.

One Q for you is when they should have called the parents to come in?

I personally think the parents should have been called the evening before, let alone when they called the kid down to the office.

The ways of principals are wild and weird.

Just trying to play devil's advocate.

Your viewpoint is a good one Teach, an insider. I am sure that is something desired by the fact that he asked for opinions. He is considering an objective opinion. Not to put words in your mouth JB.

Very fine line in protecting kids safety.

[a1mamacat]

Hugs to you my friend.

You are the best supporter for Mbee, and I know that all will work out for him.

You have a PM.

[Appa23]

I would disagree with your #5.

If anything, what your son likely learned (or should have learned) from this incident is that he should report rumors to the school authorities. If he had reported it, then I doubt that the school would have questioned him as extensively, as he would not have appeared (rightly and wrongly) as perhaps hiding something.

So much to look forward to experiencing in a few years.

(BTW, does your son now understand that he should let a teacher or resource officer know about gun rumors, and let the school authorities sort out the veracity of the rumor? Being a kid nowadays seems tougher than when we were kids. Much more of a sheltered lifestyle back then, at least for me.)

[MarleysGh0st]

Tough situation, JB. I think Mikey offers wise advise.

They even went off on a tangent when they asked him if he ever killed anything in a video game

Can we have a show of hands of BBs who have done so?

Heck, I've played video games where I've annihilated entire planets...

[ulysses5019]

Tough situation, JB. I think Mikey offers wise advise.

They even went off on a tangent when they asked him if he ever killed anything in a video game

Can we have a show of hands of BBs who have done so?

Heck, I've played video games where I've annihilated entire planets...

I've zapped my share of alien space ships. But they deserved it!

[geoffil]

I would suggest you find out legally what the rules for your state. I know in Illinois schools are given wide latitude to make decisions on behalf of your child. This means they act as parents and can make decisions in the best interest of the school and your child. You can put in writing your requests such as if they want to grill your child, they have to contact you first. Ask the school if they have policies regarding parental contact or approval. It is so unfair what they did to your child.

[jaybee]

Thanks to all for the input. I knew that there would be many here who could calmly give great advice without blowing this all out of context.

Appa - I certainly do not downplay the serious nature of a gun rumor at school. In our case, my son overheard someone who was telling someone else that they heard from somebody else that that person had heard a rumor that someone was going to bring a gun to school. Worthy of calling my son in to find out what he knew. Since he knew almost nothing, it should have been asked, answered and send him on his way.

We have a copy of the schools guidelines in hand and while much of it is a large grey area wastelend of interpretation it looks like they stepped beyond their own guidelines. I think our discussions with the school will focus on how they follow their own rules and how the lack of that affects our son rather than focus on the incident itself.

[DevilKitty100]

I need a soundingboard for a recent event at my son's school. Admittingly, I am VERY PO'd at the moment and could use a second (or third, or fourth) opinion.

Here's the deal:

Two days ago, my 15 year old son (MBee) overheard some kids talking in the high school hallway while he was walking between classes. Overheard conversation was briefly this - one kid was telling another kid that they'd heard a rumor that someone was going to bring a gun to school on Friday the 13th. MBee didn't see who was talking and didn't know who they were. Didn't really think too much of it. He didn't say anything to us but did mention it to one of his friends while playing an on-line game later that evening. The friend felt that it was something that should be mentioned and told a teacher at the end of the day yesterday.

This morning, two assistant principles and a security guard were waiting for MBee at the bus drop-off point. Since MBee rides to school in a car with his older brother, nothing happened there.

They came for MBee at his first class and took him to the office. This was first thing in the morning. At noon, we got a message from the school telling us that MBee had been called to the office in connection with a gun incident at school. MrsJayBee returned the call within a few minutes and was told that MBee had heard a rumor, that they asked him a few questions and that he was not in trouble. No problem there.

When MBee got home this afternoon, we found out that he had been questioned in the office for over an hour, had a full pat-down body search, questioned at length on his drug use, drug use in our home, gun ownership etc. They even went off on a tangent when they asked him if he ever killed anything in a video game (He says he pointed it out that even Mario kills things). All in all, MBee says the whole time they treated him like he was part of a plot to bring a gun to school.

My take on this:

1. This got way out of hand. This should have been a simple ask MBee what he knew about the gun rumor and end it at that.
2. We have reviewed the school policy on questioning students and it's pretty obvious to us that he was treated as if someone claimed that HE was planning on bring a gun to school. And no, nobody said that.
3. We can find no justification for the extended interrogation plus we feel that if our son was suspected of a criminal activity like bringing a gun to school then his parents should have been notified immediately, not several hours after the fact.
4. FWIW, MBee is an honor student (like his two brothers) and has never been in any form of trouble at school.
5. So far, the biggest lesson learned from all this is that MBee will be keeping his mouth shut no matter what he may hear - not a good way to lessen the chance of school violence - which is the reason for all this.

School is out for a four day weekend, plus I'm working 20 hour days all of next week so I have a cooling-off period before we can resolve this face to face the week after next. Currently, both MrsJayBee and I feel that our son is owed an apology for the way this was handled and will settle for nothing less. While I understand how serious school violence can be and how important it is to keep gun violence in schools from happening, I think this event was handled completely wrong. My son has learned only the wrong lessons from all this and we feel that the school not only needs to make things right with MBee but also needs to change it's zero-tolerance based policy.

BTW, did I mention that I'm really PO'd?

Thoughts?

I read this last night and decided not to say anything as usually my night time thoughts are not nearly as rational as my morning thoughts. However, even this morning the same issues still trouble me in this scenario and I say this from having raised a son of my own and having had a hand in rasing 2 other boys in their teen years:

1) He didn't see who was talking? He was close enough to hear them talking, but didn't see them? Really? Tell me again how that works, Son. Is he blind or does he walk around with eyes closed?

2) He didn't know who they were? Possibly, depending on the size of the school.

3) He didn't think over hearing a conversation about guns being brought to school warranted even a mention to school administrators or his parents? Really? Really and truly? Really, really and really truly!?!?!!

Sorry, but as a parent I'd be all OVER his ass for not immediately reporting this instead of up in arms that the school did what they thought necessary. After all, if a tragedy had come to pass, he could have been as easily dead as anyone else. And then tell me how upset you would have been with the school admins because they didn't didn't want to upset anybody witty bitty feewings!

The only part I agree with is that yes, you the parents should have been in on the process from the beginning.

And if your son didn't learn something about personal responsibility from this incident, he needs to be taken off the honor list just on general principles.

We do our children no favors by irrational indignation when there are always two sides to every story.

[peacock2121]

I avoided giving my opinion until I read DK's opinion.

I agree with her.

I would not have said it like she did and I think there is something very off with your son's story. I think he might have even made up that he heard such a thing. Things just don't add up.

I do not think the school over reacted. I do think your son was not thinking (even if he really heard the comments).

The life lesson is for your son - you can teach that one. The school was acting to protect many, as they should.

Unlike the school who has 2 kids accused of sexual assault and is doing nothing.

[jaybee]

Wow. Just Wow. Of course I did ask for input and all of it helps me see things better, even if I may disagree.

FTR, no he did not make any of this up. While we can debate forever what should be done if you hear a conversation with the keyword "gun" in it, he did nothing because he really didn't give it much credit. Had he heard someone say that they were going to bring a gun to school I have no doubt that MBee would have told someone. But this "someone heard that someone said that somebody else heard" thing just didn't register as a threat to him. As it was he only mentioned it to his friend while playing an on-line game later that evening. He didn't mention it to anyone else.

The school has about 1,000 students and unlike his older brother (who knows just about everyone) MBee has a small group of friends. That group and his classmates are the people tht he knows.

As to lessons learned - his friend (the guy that did talk to a teacher about all this) was also detained, searched and questioned at length like my son was. Since very few things remain secrets in High School, I have no doubt that what happened Friday is already well known. So, if a student who has never been in trouble at school - ever, gets this treatment for talking to a teacher about a situation like this - then what do you think the kid who got busted last year for smoking, or doing donuts in the school parking lot etc. is going to expect will happen to him? If the school wants students to talk about any "gun" events but than imposes a mandatory punishment for doing the right thing only an idiot would not think twice about saying something. It seems to me that this little non-event could make our school less safe, not more.

So my gripe remains that I feel that the school overreacted. My son told them everything that he knew about this event in the first minute or two. Everything beyond that was uncalled for. I don't want to sue anybody or beat them to a pulp. I just want them to acknowledge to my son that they mishandled this situation.

[clem21]

I agree with Pea and DK that if your son and is friend decided a teacher should be told then he really should've mentioned it to you.

That said, with something that they obviously considered serious enough, you shoul have been brought in from the beginning. Not just contacted, but brought in.

If my knowledge of in loco parentis is correct then this would be considred a violation of civil liberties as you described it. There is a difference depending on whether it's a private or public school, but still.

Do I think you could make a legal case out of it? Absolutely not. Do I think your son is owed an apology? Absolutely.

But only if this happened just as you reported it.

[Estonut]

I agree with Pea and DK that if your son and is friend decided a teacher should be told then he really should've mentioned it to you.

The son did not decide a teacher should be told. It was done by his friend without his knowledge. That's why he was blindsided by the whole incident.

[peacock2121]

From my view, your son mishandled the situation and his friend handled it with the safety of the school in mind.

I assert that if your son had gone to the authorities with what he heard, he would have been looked at and dealt with in a different manner.

The tone was set for the administration when his friend reported what your son told him and your son did not report it. A red flag would have gone up for the administration that your son was not alarmed by such a statement but felt to desire to repeat it to his friend. I am sure they had the thought that your son was possibly saying he overheard it and that was not true, but that he had the idea for his own self.

I do not see that your son is owed anything, other than maybe a lesson in "hear something, say something" and 'see something say something".

I do think you, as his parents, should have been notified as soon as he was brought to the 'office' and should have been told everything that would happen. I do not think you had any rights to stop what was going to happen.

[tubadave]

Tough situation, JB. I think Mikey offers wise advise.

They even went off on a tangent when they asked him if he ever killed anything in a video game

Can we have a show of hands of BBs who have done so?

Heck, I've played video games where I've annihilated entire planets...

I'd say there's a decent chance that I've done more video game killing than any 10 people on this Bored.

Don't even get me started on that video-games-makes-people-violent bullshit.



JayBee, I will say that I think your son probably should have spoken up about the rumor that he heard, no matter how little credibility it seemed to have.

I think something happened in the process of the friend reporting that MBee had heard the rumor. Either the friend didn't specify that MBee had heard a rumor (as opposed to being the rumor) or the administration didn't understand him correctly. If he did specify, and they did understand him correctly, then their reaction is way over the top for such an unsubstantiated rumor. I know the administrator's are trying to prevent a "Columbine" from happening at their school, and that they're all wetting their pants at the idea that they might be accused of "not doing enough" if something like that did happen, but you can only take it so far. Can you imagine if something similar happened in the adult world? Can you imagine if you got fired from your job, or interrogated/searched that way based on nothing more than one person repeating a rumor, and the only concrete information they had was that you'd heard the same rumor? Heads would roll.

All I can say is, should I ever be fortunate enough to find someone willing to marry me and bear my children, I know I won't be too thrilled with the idea of entrusting them to the public school system in this country. (Mr.K and others shouldn't take that as a knock against teachers, who I typically feel are the only sane ones left in a system that's mostly out of their control.)