WWTBAM Bored

Up until yesterday I was amongst those that believed in the JFK multiple gunman theory. I felt that there was no way that Oswald was the lone gunman and managed to fire off three rounds in six seconds scoring two clean hits with the rifle he used. Well, there was yet another of those documentaries on Discovery last night which set out to prove or disprove the lone gunman theory. Only, this one showed stuff I had not seen before. In my mind, they conclusively proved that there was only one gunman and that all of the shots came from the Book Depository Building as initially claimed.

While I had earlier felt that there were other gunmen involved, they disproved all of the possible locations for other gunmen. In a couple of the other possible locations, there would not have been a clear shot and/or the bullet would have had to go through the limo's windshield. From another location, if a shot was fired using a probable rifle, the shot would have also killed Jackie Kennedy. Recreating the scene and all the intricacies and the dynamics of the fatal shot, it is clear now where the shot came from.

And, I did not know previously that the interior of the limo had been cleaned at Parkland Hospital just after it arrived, removing a lot of the evidence.

This was a very well done documentary.

I am still puzzled by the "Magic Bullet" though. I don't know if I will ever buy that theory. But I now believe that Oswald was the lone gunman.

I saw a documentary a few years ago that convinced me that Oswald acted alone. The guys who did the one I saw built a dummy which tried to create the same density as the flesh and bone of Connelly and JFK and then fired bullets from the same distance, angle, and trajectory as Oswald from the School Book Depository building. It was a very well done piece, done kind of in the style of the MythBusters TV show.

danielh41 wrote:I saw a documentary a few years ago that convinced me that Oswald acted alone. The guys who did the one I saw built a dummy which tried to create the same density as the flesh and bone of Connelly and JFK and then fired bullets from the same distance, angle, and trajectory as Oswald from the School Book Depository building. It was a very well done piece, done kind of in the style of the MythBusters TV show.

This was a similarly produced show. I assumed it was a new piece because I had not seen it before and I typically watch all of the JFK documentaries (in the same fashion I watch all of the documentaries about The Titanic). I did not catch the production date on this one, however.

Oliver Stone's JFK actually did the most to establish that Oswald was the man, since it meant that for $9.99 and a lot of Kevin Costner you got enough of the Zapruder film to show the "cranial contents" going up and to the right.

Oswald nevertheless was such an outlier among American assassins that -- especially since one can never prove ABSENCE of a conspiracy -- I will never really believe he acted alone.

etaoin22 wrote:Oliver Stone's JFK actually did the most to establish that Oswald was the man, since it meant that for $9.99 and a lot of Kevin Costner you got enough of the Zapruder film to show the "cranial contents" going up and to the right.

Oswald nevertheless was such an outlier among American assassins that -- especially since one can never prove ABSENCE of a conspiracy -- I will never really believe he acted alone.

I enjoyed Stone's JFK but I still had some nagging doubt since a couple of documentaries I had seen since had given credence to the possibility of there being another gunman (or gunmen). But, this particular documentary showed that there was no other possible location for a gunman to shoot and get the identical results of that day. I had believed that the fatal shot was taken from the front and not from the side and the way in which JFK's head appeared to snap backward (in the Zapruder film) at the moment of impact led me to believe that a second shooter had fired from in front of the limo. But, again, this documentary disproved all of those concerns.

Sir_Galahad wrote:

etaoin22 wrote:Oliver Stone's JFK actually did the most to establish that Oswald was the man, since it meant that for $9.99 and a lot of Kevin Costner you got enough of the Zapruder film to show the "cranial contents" going up and to the right.

Oswald nevertheless was such an outlier among American assassins that -- especially since one can never prove ABSENCE of a conspiracy -- I will never really believe he acted alone.

I enjoyed Stone's JFK but I still had some nagging doubt since a couple of documentaries I had seen since had given credence to the possibility of there being another gunman (or gunmen). But, this particular documentary showed that there was no other possible location for a gunman to shoot and get the identical results of that day. I had believed that the fatal shot was taken from the front and not from the side and the way in which JFK's head appeared to snap backward (in the Zapruder film) at the moment of impact led me to believe that a second shooter had fired from in front of the limo. But, again, this documentary disproved all of those concerns.

Absolutely Oswald fired the fatal shot.

The crappy autopsy drawings also show if I understand correctly a definite entrance wound right where it ought to be with Oswald firing. What remained of Kennedy's head did snap or fall back first with "Conservation of Momentum" and then with change in center of gravity and immediate loss of muscle tone. It is the "non-medical" aspects which bother me.

etaoin22 wrote: The crappy autopsy drawings also show if I understand correctly a definite entrance wound right where it ought to be with Oswald firing. What remained of Kennedy's head did snap or fall back first with "Conservation of Momentum" and then with change in center of gravity and immediate loss of muscle tone. It is the "non-medical" aspects which bother me.

For example?

I have always found the book "Mortal Error" by Bonar Menninger to be an interesting take on the assassination. Don't know if it is true but it certainly seems plausible. One of the key experts was Howard Donahue who had shown that it was at least possible for Oswald to have fired the shots in question. In addition the theory in the book seems to help better explain the ballistics and the wounds found at autopsy.

Mortal Error

Because the publisher was sued it seems to be a tough one to put your hands on now.

Somewhere during my late childhood, I saw a fascinating production on Showtime of a trial regarding Oswald and the assasination. IIRC, Bugliosi was the prosecutor and either Gerry Spence or F. Lee Bailey was the defense attorney. There was some discussion about re-creations where expert military marksmen were unable to take as many shots as Oswald allegedly did in a compressed time frame.

It was fascinating to me.

Sir_Galahad wrote:This was a similarly produced show. I assumed it was a new piece because I had not seen it before and I typically watch all of the JFK documentaries (in the same fashion I watch all of the documentaries about The Titanic). I did not catch the production date on this one, however.

According to Zap2It.COM:

JFK: Beyond the Magic Bullet
No upcoming broadcasts in the next two weeks.
Genre: Documentary, History
First Aired: Apr 01, 2006
An examination of the physical and forensic evidence from the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in November 1963.

JFK: Beyond the Magic Bullet
No upcoming broadcasts in the next two weeks.
Genre: Documentary, History
First Aired: Apr 01, 2006
A detailed recreation tries to establish whether Lee Harvey Oswald could have fired one "magic" bullet responsible for seven wounds.

I believe I'll have another drink.

Estonut wrote:

Sir_Galahad wrote:This was a similarly produced show. I assumed it was a new piece because I had not seen it before and I typically watch all of the JFK documentaries (in the same fashion I watch all of the documentaries about The Titanic). I did not catch the production date on this one, however.

According to Zap2It.COM:

JFK: Beyond the Magic Bullet
No upcoming broadcasts in the next two weeks.
Genre: Documentary, History
First Aired: Apr 01, 2006
An examination of the physical and forensic evidence from the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in November 1963.

JFK: Beyond the Magic Bullet
No upcoming broadcasts in the next two weeks.
Genre: Documentary, History
First Aired: Apr 01, 2006
A detailed recreation tries to establish whether Lee Harvey Oswald could have fired one "magic" bullet responsible for seven wounds.

I saw the one last night too...it had nothing to do with the "Magic Bullet", just the fatal shot.

According to the date info on Dish Network, it aired for the first time November 16, 2008

i think I saw the tail end of that one in the fall. I can't recall whether they used a hydraulic lift with a platform to serve as the 6th Floor or if they shot from a canyon top.

I do recall the conclusion that if a shot had been taken from the grassy Knoll with the caliber of ammunition that it appears was used, it would basically have blown Kennedy's head off and killed Jackie.

DaveSenior72 wrote:

Estonut wrote:

Sir_Galahad wrote:This was a similarly produced show. I assumed it was a new piece because I had not seen it before and I typically watch all of the JFK documentaries (in the same fashion I watch all of the documentaries about The Titanic). I did not catch the production date on this one, however.

According to Zap2It.COM:

JFK: Beyond the Magic Bullet
No upcoming broadcasts in the next two weeks.
Genre: Documentary, History
First Aired: Apr 01, 2006
An examination of the physical and forensic evidence from the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in November 1963.

JFK: Beyond the Magic Bullet
No upcoming broadcasts in the next two weeks.
Genre: Documentary, History
First Aired: Apr 01, 2006
A detailed recreation tries to establish whether Lee Harvey Oswald could have fired one "magic" bullet responsible for seven wounds.

I saw the one last night too...it had nothing to do with the "Magic Bullet", just the fatal shot.

According to the date info on Dish Network, it aired for the first time November 16, 2008

Perhaps Zap2It and Dish Network both have it wrong. The closing credits, which only appear at the end of the second part, indicated MMIV. I can't see Discovery going to the trouble of producing this and then keeping it "in the can" for at least a year.

I always thought the date in the credits represents the completion date for a project. Does anyone more production-savvy know if that is the case, and if that represents the true, final completion (after all post-production tasks)?

The one I saw must have been the one that first aired in April 2006 since it talked at great lengths about the magic bullet theory. And they proved beyond any doubt that Oswald's bullet could have caused all the wounds as recorded on Nov. 22, 1963.

About 10 years ago I visited the 6th Floor Museum which is housed in the Texas Book Depository and the museum of course is located on the floor where the snipers nest was. It is a very interesting museum, so I would recommend it to anyone visiting Dallas.

They preserved the section with the boxes and everything exactly how it was the day of the shooting - even down to the detail of Oswald's absence (OK I stole that joke).

Seriously, a couple of things convinced me that Oswald did pull the trigger from that location. Coincidently a month or so prior to visiting the museum, I played paint ball for the first time. Now, you can imagine that between the use the paint ball rifles get and the non-ideal aerodynamic properties of the paintball itself, plus never having used that before (and really not all that gun savvy to begin with) I was amazed at how far and high accurate I was with that equipment. Hitting targets that initially I was convinced were either out-of-range or I would miss be a fair amount. At the museum you actually can't look out of the specific window that Oswald used, but you can look out of the adjacent window. In addition, there is a marking on the street at the exact point the limo was when Kennedy was killed. Having recently done the paintball activity I knew that that was like half the distance of what I was hitting with a paint ball rifle, and my reaction was there would be no way he could miss. I felt my 5-year old could have gotten off a successful shot. Up to that point, not being a buff in the whole conspiracy thing, but still having some knowledge of the some of the evidence for a conspiracy and I kept hearing how it was a tough shot for even an expert marksman - which at that point I knew it was clear B.S. It also caused me to wonder how accurate their other 'facts' were.

So, I can't say I've delved any deeper into it, but that experience alone convinced me that there really was no reason to doubt the Oswald could have done it and did cause me to doubt the doubters.

Finally, I never understood why people assume a single person couldn't do such a thing - Kennedy was exposed, was in range, there is no reason why someone who had access to a weapon and a prime location couldn't easily pull it off.

---Jay

Silly peeps. Everyone who's anyone knows John Dillinger fired the shot that killed Kennedy.

Kick out the jams!

All Hail Eris!

Hail Discordia!

frogman042 wrote: Finally, I never understood why people assume a single person couldn't do such a thing - Kennedy was exposed, was in range, there is no reason why someone who had access to a weapon and a prime location couldn't easily pull it off.

What made me had my doubts were two things. First, I have never been to Dealey Plaza so I did not know that the distance from the window to the limo was as short as you said it is. From the accounts I have seen it looked pretty far to me. Second, I had a hard time believing that Oswald who, according to reports, was a fair shot but not exactly a marksman, managed to pull off three shots with the Carcano and get two clean hits in six seconds.