WWTBAM Bored

Rickey Henderson, who raised talking about himself in the third person to an art form, was elected to Cooperstown in his first year of eligibilty. Jim Rice, who talked with reporters about as much as Ted Williams did, was elected in his final year of eligibilty.

I see Mo Vaughn got 6 votes.... I was at the game in which he got his final Major League hit, which was a conservatively estimated 466 foot blast into Old Busch Stadium's upper deck.....

And I am pissed that neither Paquette or Mike "Kerosene" Williams were even put on the ballot....

lb13

littlebeast13 wrote:I see Mo Vaughn got 6 votes.... I was at the game in which he got his final Major League hit, which was a conservatively estimated 466 foot blast into Old Busch Stadium's upper deck.....

And I am pissed that neither Paquette or Mike "Kerosene" Williams were even put on the ballot....

lb13

Mike? Or Mitch?

Were there two?

Way to go, Rice!

(I am not dissing Henderson here, just don't know anything about him, being a transplanted Bostonian more than a knowledgeable baseball fan.)

We like Rice here in Boston. Come to think of it, we like Ted Williams too (though he was well before my time as an active player) however much they talked to reporters or didn't.

minimetoo26 wrote:

littlebeast13 wrote:I see Mo Vaughn got 6 votes.... I was at the game in which he got his final Major League hit, which was a conservatively estimated 466 foot blast into Old Busch Stadium's upper deck.....

And I am pissed that neither Paquette or Mike "Kerosene" Williams were even put on the ballot....

lb13

Mike? Or Mitch?

Were there two?

Yes, and they both played for the Phillies at the same time (I don't think their brief Royals careers intersected....). Kerosene Williams is more notable for his Pirates tenure though.....

Kerosene Williams is a legend of my BBBL team, as was Erick Almonte, who also would've been eligible for the ballot having not played since 2003....

lb13

It is amazing to me that Rice had to wait 15 years to get voted in.

TheCalvinator24 wrote:It is amazing to me that Rice had to wait 15 years to get voted in.

It's amazing to me that he got in at all. Compare his numbers (particularly away from Fenway, which gives everyone's numbers a boost) to those of contemporaries who will never get to Cooperstown without buying a ticket. Rice belongs in the Hall of Very Good, but not in the Hall of Fame.

On the other hand, it is amazing to me that Tim Raines and (particularly) Bert Blyleven aren't in. --Bob

Bob78164 wrote:

TheCalvinator24 wrote:It is amazing to me that Rice had to wait 15 years to get voted in.

It's amazing to me that he got in at all. Compare his numbers (particularly away from Fenway, which gives everyone's numbers a boost) to those of contemporaries who will never get to Cooperstown without buying a ticket. Rice belongs in the Hall of Very Good, but not in the Hall of Fame.

On the other hand, it is amazing to me that Tim Raines and (particularly) Bert Blyleven aren't in. --Bob

I agree with you on Bert. I am not sold on Raines. I also don't think Rice should be there. No problem with Henderson.

Bob78164 wrote:

TheCalvinator24 wrote:It is amazing to me that Rice had to wait 15 years to get voted in.

It's amazing to me that he got in at all. Compare his numbers (particularly away from Fenway, which gives everyone's numbers a boost) to those of contemporaries who will never get to Cooperstown without buying a ticket. Rice belongs in the Hall of Very Good, but not in the Hall of Fame.

On the other hand, it is amazing to me that Tim Raines and (particularly) Bert Blyleven aren't in. --Bob

I don't remember which commentator it was on the radio, but somebody said with HoF discussions, he usually goes by his initial reaction when he hears the name.

When I hear the name Jim Rice, I think HoF.

When I hear Tim Raines, not so much.

Blyleven doesn't do it for me, either.

Rice was "robbed" of Home runs by playing in Fenway. He wasn't known for hitting towering shots. He hit screaming line drives that would have cleared the fence in almost every park, but they would hit the green monster, and he would be held to a double, or even a single.

I don't discount stats completely, but just IMO Rice belongs, and Raines does not. Blyleven perhaps, but he doesn't pass the "gut feeling" test with me.

TheCalvinator24 wrote:Rice was "robbed" of Home runs by playing in Fenway. He wasn't known for hitting towering shots. He hit screaming line drives that would have cleared the fence in almost every park, but they would hit the green monster, and he would be held to a double, or even a single.

If that were the case, then why didn't this effect disappear for his "away" games?

Check the numbers. Use Jim Rice's road numbers (particularly the numbers, such as slugging percentage and on-base percentage, that didn't depend on having scads of runners on base in front of him), double the counting (as opposed to rate) numbers, compare the results to his contemporaries, and make a Hall of Fame case for him. I think you'll find that he comes up short and that it's not particularly close.

Jim Rice's election was all about narrative in direct opposition to objective data. His election certainly is not the Hall's worst moment, not by a long shot. But there will now be a lot of good-not-great players who can argue, with some justification, that if Rice is a Hall-of-Famer, then so is blank. In the long run, that's bad for the Hall. The writers blew this one.

As for Tim Raines, did you know that he reached base more times than Tony Gwynn, despite having fewer plate appearances? I believe his power numbers also were better than Gwynn's, and of course, he added a ton of value with his ability to steal bases. Your gut feeling is probably a direct result of the fact that Raines spent many of his best years toiling away invisibly in Montreal. The numbers, though, say that Tim Raines is the best leadoff hitter who ever lived that wasn't named Rickey Henderson. If Tony Gwynn belongs in the Hall of Fame (and he does), then so does Rock.

It's perfectly valid to have a gut feeling, of course, and it adds flavor to the game when fans know and love the game enough to have gut feelings of this sort. But I hold BBWAA to a higher standard. I do think that eventually they'll get it right on both Blyleven and Raines. --Bob

Bob78164 wrote:

TheCalvinator24 wrote:Rice was "robbed" of Home runs by playing in Fenway. He wasn't known for hitting towering shots. He hit screaming line drives that would have cleared the fence in almost every park, but they would hit the green monster, and he would be held to a double, or even a single.

If that were the case, then why didn't this effect disappear for his "away" games?

Check the numbers. Use Jim Rice's road numbers (particularly the numbers, such as slugging percentage and on-base percentage, that didn't depend on having scads of runners on base in front of him), double the counting (as opposed to rate) numbers, compare the results to his contemporaries, and make a Hall of Fame case for him. I think you'll find that he comes up short and that it's not particularly close.

Jim Rice's election was all about narrative in direct opposition to objective data. His election certainly is not the Hall's worst moment, not by a long shot. But there will now be a lot of good-not-great players who can argue, with some justification, that if Rice is a Hall-of-Famer, then so is blank. In the long run, that's bad for the Hall. The writers blew this one.

As for Tim Raines, did you know that he reached base more times than Tony Gwynn, despite having fewer plate appearances? I believe his power numbers also were better than Gwynn's, and of course, he added a ton of value with his ability to steal bases. Your gut feeling is probably a direct result of the fact that Raines spent many of his best years toiling away invisibly in Montreal. The numbers, though, say that Tim Raines is the best leadoff hitter who ever lived that wasn't named Rickey Henderson. If Tony Gwynn belongs in the Hall of Fame (and he does), then so does Rock.

It's perfectly valid to have a gut feeling, of course, and it adds flavor to the game when fans know and love the game enough to have gut feelings of this sort. But I hold BBWAA to a higher standard. I do think that eventually they'll get it right on both Blyleven and Raines. --Bob

I don't think Rice is a HOFamer either and I think it's quasi-hypocritical for the many writers who didn't think Rice belonged for the last decade and a half but suddenly because it's his last year they think he belongs. Thant's just stupid IMHO. And "gut feelings," no offense, shouldn't count for squat. Stats should.

jay bell got 2 votes


i sorta remember rice bein mediocre away from fenway

All I know is, as a Yankee fan, Rice stepping up to the plate scared the crap outta me.


And I couldn't stand Henderson, not even when he was on the Yanks. He was a "me me me" player. Always.

Definitely A HoF'er, though. Can't deny that.

T_Bone0806 wrote:All I know is, as a Yankee fan, Rice stepping up to the plate scared the crap outta me.


And I couldn't stand Henderson, not even when he was on the Yanks. He was a "me me me" player. Always.

Definitely A HoF'er, though. Can't deny that.

Well Geronimo Berroa scared the crap out of me and Kevin Millar still does. It don't mean they're Hall of Famers.

clem21 wrote:

T_Bone0806 wrote:All I know is, as a Yankee fan, Rice stepping up to the plate scared the crap outta me.


And I couldn't stand Henderson, not even when he was on the Yanks. He was a "me me me" player. Always.

Definitely A HoF'er, though. Can't deny that.

Well Geronimo Berroa scared the crap out of me and Kevin Millar still does. It don't mean they're Hall of Famers.

I was so intimidating at the plate, lightning once struck Busch Stadium while I was batting in 2000. Even God was scared to death of ol' Craig!

And I couldn't even get on the ballot!?!?!? Was it because I refused to give Gov. Blago a bribe?

CP21

clem21 wrote:

T_Bone0806 wrote:All I know is, as a Yankee fan, Rice stepping up to the plate scared the crap outta me.


And I couldn't stand Henderson, not even when he was on the Yanks. He was a "me me me" player. Always.

Definitely A HoF'er, though. Can't deny that.

Well Geronimo Berroa scared the crap out of me and Kevin Millar still does. It don't mean they're Hall of Famers.

Yeah but Rice scared the crap outta me for an extended period of time. He was a dominant batter, and one of the most feared in his era. Stats are only part of the story. I would've voted him in.

T_Bone0806 wrote:

clem21 wrote:

T_Bone0806 wrote:All I know is, as a Yankee fan, Rice stepping up to the plate scared the crap outta me.


And I couldn't stand Henderson, not even when he was on the Yanks. He was a "me me me" player. Always.

Definitely A HoF'er, though. Can't deny that.

Well Geronimo Berroa scared the crap out of me and Kevin Millar still does. It don't mean they're Hall of Famers.

Yeah but Rice scared the crap outta me for an extended period of time. He was a dominant batter, and one of the most feared in his era. Stats are only part of the story. I would've voted him in.

Stats are the majority of the story. In Mo Vaughn's years with Boston he was incredibly scary to all teams but he's no HOFer either. I mean Andre Dawson was absolutely dominant for a solid period of time to, what makes Rice any better than he? Is it his crappy fielding?

Guess that's baseball. That's why I love it. Every fan has his own opinions.

T_Bone0806 wrote:Guess that's baseball. That's why I love it. Every fan has his own opinions.

This is true, very true. Our college's team had their first practice of the year today. I cover the team for our newspaper and I help out during the practices. It was absolutely freezing and there were ice patches on the field...

It was awesome.

T_Bone0806 wrote:Yeah but Rice scared the crap outta me for an extended period of time. He was a dominant batter, and one of the most feared in his era. Stats are only part of the story. I would've voted him in.

That's the thing. No, he wasn't. There's a way to measure this. Check out his intentional walks. You'll find he didn't draw all that many (possibly because pitchers knew that Rice hit into a ton of double plays.) And if he was so feared, why weren't the writers voting for him in greater numbers in his first years of eligibility.

The "most feared hitter of his era" trope is a myth that's gained prominence in direct proportion to our distance from Rice's career. Stats may not be everything, but they give you a good first cut. In Rice's case, his Hall-of-Fame case shouldn't have survived that cut. --Bob