WWTBAM Bored

No, I don't have one.

I need one.

I am working on the paper for my contemporary ethical theory class. I am comparing two systems, and my preferred method is to work through a real case, to see how each system would respond to it.

So if you see any juicy problems in the news or whatever, please holler. If nothing turns up, I will select one at random from this Sunday's newspaper.

Thanks.

A friend ordered this Pottery Barn mirror. Not chepa - couple hundred bucks. Her husband says - maybe we should get another one to balance it out on the wall. She isn't crazy about spending the money on another one, one works just fine. Later than afternoon, she gets a call from Pottery Barn wanting to schedule the delivery of the mirror. She says - what mirror? - they say ' the one you ordered 4 weeks ago - it is finally in. She says - is it paid for? - they say yes.

If you want to know how she handled it, let me know.

peacock2121 wrote:A friend ordered this Pottery Barn mirror. Not chepa - couple hundred bucks. Her husband says - maybe we should get another one to balance it out on the wall. She isn't crazy about spending the money on another one, one works just fine. Later than afternoon, she gets a call from Pottery Barn wanting to schedule the delivery of the mirror. She says - what mirror? - they say ' the one you ordered 4 weeks ago - it is finally in. She says - is it paid for? - they say yes.

If you want to know how she handled it, let me know.

How could taking advantage of their mistake be anything but ethically wrong?

A cashier makes a mistake giving you change. If you'd call it to their attention when you're underchanged, you also ought to do so if you're overpaid. IMHO.

Same thing...

Ritterskoop wrote:No, I don't have one.

I need one.

I am working on the paper for my contemporary ethical theory class. I am comparing two systems, and my preferred method is to work through a real case, to see how each system would respond to it.

So if you see any juicy problems in the news or whatever, please holler. If nothing turns up, I will select one at random from this Sunday's newspaper.

Thanks.

When I went to the grocery store the other day, I asked for $30 back in cash. I was at an automatic self-scanner thing so no human was involved.

The machine gave me an extra $20.

If it was a person, I wouldd have handed it back.

It was a machine that made the mistake. I admit that I did not go say anything to the courtesy desk.

Hmmmm.


What would you have done?

christie1111 wrote: What would you have done?

See my previous post.

MarleysGh0st wrote:

christie1111 wrote: What would you have done?

See my previous post.

Yeah, but I am talking person vs. machine. No question I would have handed back the $20 to a person.

I have even gone back into a store to return extra money a cashier gave me.

christie1111 wrote:

MarleysGh0st wrote:

christie1111 wrote: What would you have done?

See my previous post.

Yeah, but I am talking person vs. machine. No question I would have handed back the $20 to a person.

I have even gone back into a store to return extra money a cashier gave me.

I've done the same thing, to the surprise of those who were with me at the time. In fact, in order to do it we had to drive several miles back to the place.

christie1111 wrote:

MarleysGh0st wrote:

christie1111 wrote: What would you have done?

See my previous post.

Yeah, but I am talking person vs. machine. No question I would have handed back the $20 to a person.

I have even gone back into a store to return extra money a cashier gave me.

How about ATM malfunction or Slot Machine Malfunction at a Casino?

I usually resolve all ethical dilemmas that come up around here. Like tother day, ol Jim Bob said he caught this big ol catfish outta the Pecos, but Johnny Jack said he landed it. They wanted to know whose fish it was. I heard their sides, took the fish back into chambers, and after lunch announced there was no clear direction in my law books, so the fish would be forfeited by both parties.

I had to pull my pistols to maintain order.

christie1111 wrote:

MarleysGh0st wrote:

christie1111 wrote: What would you have done?

See my previous post.

Yeah, but I am talking person vs. machine. No question I would have handed back the $20 to a person.

I have even gone back into a store to return extra money a cashier gave me.

I believe in allowing things to even themselves out in the long run.

I have never returned extra money given to me by a cashier, but by the same token, I have also never demanded the rest of my change if they shorted me....

lb13

christie1111 wrote:

MarleysGh0st wrote:

christie1111 wrote: What would you have done?

See my previous post.

Yeah, but I am talking person vs. machine. No question I would have handed back the $20 to a person.

So, if that machine had short-changed you the $20, would you have accepted the mistake or found a manager to complain to?

And, ethical questions aside, it's a mistake to assume that the machine's not keeping records that would let them track down the error and demand that overpayment back. (Particularly with an ATM, where they know your account number, or a slot machine, in a casino with security cameras everywhere. Maybe not at an automated supermarket check-out, if you can make a hasty disappearance with your windfall.)

MarleysGh0st wrote:

christie1111 wrote:

MarleysGh0st wrote: See my previous post.

Yeah, but I am talking person vs. machine. No question I would have handed back the $20 to a person.

So, if that machine had short-changed you the $20, would you have accepted the mistake or found a manager to complain to?

And, ethical questions aside, it's a mistake to assume that the machine's not keeping records that would let them track down the error and demand that overpayment back. (Particularly with an ATM, where they know your account number, or a slot machine, in a casino with security cameras everywhere. Maybe not at an automated supermarket check-out, if you can make a hasty disappearance with your windfall.)

I checked my receipt and it says I received $30.

I do not think they could tell when a machine mistakenly dispensed an extra $20.

christie1111 wrote: I checked my receipt and it says I received $30.

I do not think they could tell when a machine mistakenly dispensed an extra $20.

So, if that machine had short-changed you the $20, would you have accepted the mistake or found a manager to complain to?

MarleysGh0st wrote:

christie1111 wrote: I checked my receipt and it says I received $30.

I do not think they could tell when a machine mistakenly dispensed an extra $20.

So, if that machine had short-changed you the $20, would you have accepted the mistake or found a manager to complain to?

Not speaking for christie, but see my previous post.

You say that like the answer should be obvious....

lb13

littlebeast13 wrote:

MarleysGh0st wrote:

christie1111 wrote: I checked my receipt and it says I received $30.

I do not think they could tell when a machine mistakenly dispensed an extra $20.

So, if that machine had short-changed you the $20, would you have accepted the mistake or found a manager to complain to?

Not speaking for christie, but see my previous post.

You say that like the answer should be obvious....

I did see your post and, yes, there are two answers to my question. The point I was trying to make was that, when we're discussing the realm of ethics, one's response to being over/underchanged should be consistent.

And so as not to appear so high and mighty, I'll add another example.

You go to a vending machine and the bag of potato chips gets stuck in the dispenser. Do you fill out the little refund envelope (or calmly accept the 80 cent loss) or do you rock the machine back and forth, because you want your potato chips now, dammit? Bearing in mind that the latter action has the risk of possibly inflicting far more damage on the machine than the trivial loss you were faced with.

I'll confess to having taken the latter course. Though not having actually caused any damage to the machine.

So far...

Anyway, I think Skoop is looking for examples with more substantial gray areas than what we're discussing here.

Not that anything that stimulates discussion on a Friday is a bad thing!

MarleysGh0st wrote:You go to a vending machine and the bag of potato chips gets stuck in the dispenser. Do you fill out the little refund envelope (or calmly accept the 80 cent loss) or do you rock the machine back and forth, because you want your potato chips now, dammit? Bearing in mind that the latter action has the risk of possibly inflicting far more damage on the machine than the trivial loss you were faced with.

I'll confess to having taken the latter course. Though not having actually caused any damage to the machine.

So far...

The snack machine in our lounge at work is the only vending machine left from when I first started there almost 10 years ago. It is notoriously stingy with getting bags of chips (especially popcorn) hung up, and has taken numerous beatings and shakings (many from me) over the last decade. That machine is tougher than a Timex watch....

But my ethical principal also applies to vending machines. I have taken many a loss on them, but have probably more than come out ahead due to the number of free sodas and extra change they have given me back over the long haul...

lb13

MarleysGh0st wrote:

christie1111 wrote: I checked my receipt and it says I received $30.

I do not think they could tell when a machine mistakenly dispensed an extra $20.

So, if that machine had short-changed you the $20, would you have accepted the mistake or found a manager to complain to?

I would have complained.

Do I feel a little guilty that I didn't return the $20? Yeah, a little.

But considering this is the only store I shop at and given how much I spend there a month, the guilt fades.

It justs seems like a random luck thing that I got an extra $20 because bills were stuck together.

Serindippity.

I wonder how that really should be spelled?

littlebeast13 wrote:

MarleysGh0st wrote:You go to a vending machine and the bag of potato chips gets stuck in the dispenser. Do you fill out the little refund envelope (or calmly accept the 80 cent loss) or do you rock the machine back and forth, because you want your potato chips now, dammit? Bearing in mind that the latter action has the risk of possibly inflicting far more damage on the machine than the trivial loss you were faced with.

I'll confess to having taken the latter course. Though not having actually caused any damage to the machine.

So far...

The snack machine in our lounge at work is the only vending machine left from when I first started there almost 10 years ago. It is notoriously stingy with getting bags of chips (especially popcorn) hung up, and has taken numerous beatings and shakings (many from me) over the last decade. That machine is tougher than a Timex watch....

But my ethical principal also applies to vending machines. I have taken many a loss on them, but have probably more than come out ahead due to the number of free sodas and extra change they have given me back over the long haul...

lb13

I would not try to get my money back.

Annoyed, yes. But I would probably just put more money in to get the bag freed.

MarleysGh0st wrote:

peacock2121 wrote:A friend ordered this Pottery Barn mirror. Not chepa - couple hundred bucks. Her husband says - maybe we should get another one to balance it out on the wall. She isn't crazy about spending the money on another one, one works just fine. Later than afternoon, she gets a call from Pottery Barn wanting to schedule the delivery of the mirror. She says - what mirror? - they say ' the one you ordered 4 weeks ago - it is finally in. She says - is it paid for? - they say yes.

If you want to know how she handled it, let me know.

How could taking advantage of their mistake be anything but ethically wrong?

A cashier makes a mistake giving you change. If you'd call it to their attention when you're underchanged, you also ought to do so if you're overpaid. IMHO.

Same thing...

That it wasn't an automatic for her, made it a dilemma.

The fact that you spend so many hours of your work day on a message bored is not an ethical dilemma for you. It might be a dilemma for someone else and for another it might just be ethically wrong to do so (therefore not a dilemma).

That is what makes ethics and dilemmas so interesting.

This might not be what you're looking for, but I'll take a crack at it:

Let's say that some guy has a bunch of apple trees. So many that it's impossible to know how many apples there are. He agrees that if you pick them and sell them, you can keep 15% of the proceeds. Honor system. When you let him know that you're finished, he says that you should just send him a check for his 88%. You point out that he's entitled to 85%, but he insists that the agreement was that you'd get 12%.

Since this is a hypothetical, let's stipulate a couple of assumptions, just to take them out of the equation: 1) you're absolutely certain that he agreed to give you 15%; and 2) there is no possibility that you'll be able to persuade him that he is wrong.

Let's also assume that whatever the amount of the check that you send him is, it will never be challenged.

What do you do?

If you want to try to throw in a few variables to see if that changes things, what if in one case you're pretty sure that he's making an honest mistake, and in another you're positive that he meant to screw you all along.

Now, what if the deal was cut with your minor child, and you're responsible for collecting? Two variable here: in the first case, the child is going to know exactly what happened, and in the second the child will never know anything about what you did to get his money.

Now, what if you're acting on behalf of a crew of yuppies who were just looking for a weekend adventure? Now, what if your crew is a group of impoverished people who are in danger of starving. Now, what if one of them has a child who needs medicine (or will die).

Do any of the variables make any difference?

MarleysGh0st wrote:You go to a vending machine and the bag of potato chips gets stuck in the dispenser. Do you fill out the little refund envelope (or calmly accept the 80 cent loss) or do you rock the machine back and forth, because you want your potato chips now, dammit? Bearing in mind that the latter action has the risk of possibly inflicting far more damage on the machine than the trivial loss you were faced with.

I'll confess to having taken the latter course. Though not having actually caused any damage to the machine.

So far...

My reaction is often to put another 75 cents (or whatever) in the machine and make the same selection. If I'm lucky, I'll get two packages (having paid for two).

My favorite ethical dilemma comes from Henny Youngman:

"A man walks into a clothing store and says, 'I need a sports jacket, fast.'

"The salesman finds a sports jacket that fits perfectly, and says, 'That'll be $20.' (This is an old ethical dilemma.)

"The customer pulls a bill out of his pocket, hands it to the salesman, and dashes for the door.

"The salesman looks at the bill: it's a $100 bill.

"Here's the salesman's dilemma: 'Do I, or do I not, tell my partner?'"

It was a machine that made the mistake. I admit that I did not go say anything to the courtesy desk.

I would try to return it. Not because I'm especially concerned with being ethical, but because for me, karma's a bitch. If that happened to me, and I dint return it, when I got out to my car somebody woulda dinged it to the tune of $200 in damage. Yes, I am superstitious.

t.

I love waking up to 22 repsonses. Thanks.

I will consider the specifics tonight at work. I have errands right now.

Quickly, though, yes, a dilemma is when you have two equally troublesome options, because one of them will leave something undone or incomplete. When you have a choice of the right thing and the wrong thing and it's just about your strength or weakness of will, that's not a dilemma.