joe the plumber should keep yap shut

[BigDrawMan]

joe does not make 260k a year before or after expenses, though he hopes to one day

joe has been plumbing without a license

the owner of the plumbing biness joe wants to buy has no plans to sell to joe

joe owes back taxes to ohia

[Weyoun]

Why are Joe's business plans worth investigating, but we still have no idea what Obama was doing for about twenty years?

Am I the only one uncomfortable with someone random like this "Joe" having to worry about his private life being investigated, just because he has the temerity to express a political opinion that differs from that held by our ruling class?

[BigDrawMan]

Why are Joe's business plans worth investigating, but we still have no idea what Obama was doing for about twenty years?

Am I the only one uncomfortable with someone random like this "Joe" having to worry about his private life being investigated, just because he has the temerity to express a political opinion that differs from that held by our ruling class?

joe agreed to go on the morning shows today and told his story.PR is not joe's bag.
I am unaware of Joe's opinions on anything, nor do I know the opinions of any of our ruling class.

Frontline had a good bio on Obama(and McCain) Tuesday nite.They didnt skip any 20 year period of his life.You can probably see it on pbs.org

[silverscreenselect]

joe does not make 260k a year before or after expenses, though he hopes to one day

joe has been plumbing without a license

the owner of the plumbing biness joe wants to buy has no plans to sell to joe

joe owes back taxes to ohia

1) Joe never said he owned his business or that he made 250K a year. He said that if things went well he hoped to buy the business where he works (he called it his business but it's actually a two-man firm owned by the other guy and hearing his full comments it was clear to me that he didn't own the business now).

2) A state plumber's license, which entitles an individual to work as a plumber on commercial projects measures knowledge and skills but it is not required under Ohio law for residential plumbing.

3) City, township and county plumber's licenses entitle a business to do work in the municipality. They are revenue generating measures like any business license, not a determination by the municipality that any individual has plumbing skills. Joe's business has a city license for Toledo but apparently does not have a county license. That's very common for small contractors (I worked for a satellite contractor so I know), who may only do one or two jobs a year in any particular municipality and don't get licenses each and every place they do a job. If caught, which is rare, they wind up buying a licenese and that's it.

In any event, how does the fact that Joe's employer may not have a license in a county have anything to do with Joe? When was the last time you checked if your employer had every single city, county, and state license and permit that was required to under the law? Does

4) I suspect that there's a lot of those "average" folks that Obama claims to be working for who have had tax problems or collectors after them or judgments or garnishments or similar financial problems. Apparently, Obama is working for Joe as long as Joe keeps his mouth shut but not if he dares to criticize the Chosen One.

Bottom line.... Obama said something stupid about his tax policy which is what usually happens when he gets off his teleprompter and his memorized talking points and tries to actually answer a real question. He gets messed up because he doesn't really know what he's talking about. So rather than try to explain it, people try to demonize Joe as being somehow less than a model citizen. Whether he is or not (and he seems to have done nothing illegal other than be behind on his taxes), that doesn't make his criticism of Obama somehow less valid or Obama's moronic response any better.

[NellyLunatic1980]

Joe the Plumber's full name is Joseph Wurzelbacher.

Wurzelbacher... hmmm... I've heard that name somewhere before.

Oh yeah! He's related to Robert Wurzelbacher... son-in-law of...

CHARLES KEATING!

mcd1400de: "Charles who?"

[flockofseagulls104]

joe does not make 260k a year before or after expenses, though he hopes to one day

joe has been plumbing without a license

the owner of the plumbing biness joe wants to buy has no plans to sell to joe

joe owes back taxes to ohia

1) Joe never said he owned his business or that he made 250K a year. He said that if things went well he hoped to buy the business where he works (he called it his business but it's actually a two-man firm owned by the other guy and hearing his full comments it was clear to me that he didn't own the business now).

2) A state plumber's license, which entitles an individual to work as a plumber on commercial projects measures knowledge and skills but it is not required under Ohio law for residential plumbing.

3) City, township and county plumber's licenses entitle a business to do work in the municipality. They are revenue generating measures like any business license, not a determination by the municipality that any individual has plumbing skills. Joe's business has a city license for Toledo but apparently does not have a county license. That's very common for small contractors (I worked for a satellite contractor so I know), who may only do one or two jobs a year in any particular municipality and don't get licenses each and every place they do a job. If caught, which is rare, they wind up buying a licenese and that's it.

In any event, how does the fact that Joe's employer may not have a license in a county have anything to do with Joe? When was the last time you checked if your employer had every single city, county, and state license and permit that was required to under the law? Does

4) I suspect that there's a lot of those "average" folks that Obama claims to be working for who have had tax problems or collectors after them or judgments or garnishments or similar financial problems. Apparently, Obama is working for Joe as long as Joe keeps his mouth shut but not if he dares to criticize the Chosen One.

Bottom line.... Obama said something stupid about his tax policy which is what usually happens when he gets off his teleprompter and his memorized talking points and tries to actually answer a real question. He gets messed up because he doesn't really know what he's talking about. So rather than try to explain it, people try to demonize Joe as being somehow less than a model citizen. Whether he is or not (and he seems to have done nothing illegal other than be behind on his taxes), that doesn't make his criticism of Obama somehow less valid or Obama's moronic response any better.

bdm's just drooling again

[franktangredi]

My only question is: Who was it who decided to put Joe in the spotlight? It does seem a teeny-weeny disingenuous for the same people who seized on this exchange as a means to attack Obama -- thereby turning Joe into a symbol -- to then turn around and blame Obama for the scrutiny.

No, these revelations neither validate nor invalidate the issue. It has just as much or as little validity as it did before.

[Weyoun]

My only question is: Who was it who decided to put Joe in the spotlight? It does seem a teeny-weeny disingenuous for the same people who seized on this exchange as a means to attack Obama -- thereby turning Joe into a symbol -- to then turn around and blame Obama for the scrutiny.

No, these revelations neither validate nor invalidate the issue. It has just as much or as little validity as it did before.

The issue is what Obama SAID - that's why Joe is in the spotlight. But suddenly the debate is about Joe, which makes me uncomfortable. I don't like the ad hominem on the internet, never mind in our politics.

[silverscreenselect]

Joe the Plumber's full name is Joseph Wurzelbacher.

Wurzelbacher... hmmm... I've heard that name somewhere before.

Oh yeah! He's related to Robert Wurzelbacher... son-in-law of...

CHARLES KEATING!

mcd1400de: "Charles who?"

Robert Wurzelbacher is from Phoenix. Joe the plumber is from Ohio. None of the blogs or others claiming a relationship have any proof exactly what the relationship is. Joe is too young to be Robert's son, probably too old to be his brother. So if there is some relationship, there should be some proof of it.

Joe was playing football in his front yard with his son Sunday when Obama came by for a photo op. He asked Obama an intelligent, polite question. He wasn't a plant at a townhall looking for a gotcha. Obama gave an answer that contained a very stupid remark. For that, Joe is being pilloried.

Why aren't we vetting Charlie Gibson and Katie Couric to see if they have any tax liens (as apparently Obama's campaign treasurer is).

Now Obama himself is on Joe's case, as Joe Biden was yesterday. And all we have learned is that Joe is a blue collar guy with dreams of owning his own company who has been in some financial difficulty and may be working for a contractor who has cut a few corners on obtaining business licenses that are revenue generating measures anyway. In other words, he's exactly the type of guy that Obama claims to be looking out for (when he's not talking about how Joe and his type cling to guns and religion). A lot more people identify with Joe the plumber than the idiots who keep trying to tear him down, because a lot of them don't have sparkling credit records or job records. Joe has a dream of owning his own business and rather than try to help him, Obama and company are trying to take him down.

Joe could turn into Obama's macaca moment, not so much by what he said as by the way he and his followers continue to go after Joe. After the macaca incident, you didn't see the Republicans investigating the student who filmed it trying to see if he might have any unpaid parking tickets or a pot bust. But this is what the Democratic party is now proudly turning into. John Murtha, another person who has dropped considerably in my opinion in recent days, talks about how his supporters are racists who won't vote for McCain. I still admire Hillary for choosing to go after McCain and Palin solely on the issues and not engage in the type of character assassination that is running rampant everywhere else.

Every day I think the Democratic party can't possibly get any lower and every day I become angrier and more saddened. How can anyone really think that Obama is looking out for their interests?

[BigDrawMan]

joe has already done more intervoews than sarah palin

[wintergreen48]

I still admire Hillary for choosing to go after McCain and Palin solely on the issues and not engage in the type of character assassination that is running rampant everywhere else.

SSS, it's great that you have come to realize that there are indeed certain biases that run through the 'mainstream press,' to the advantage of whoever happens to be the Chosen One of the moment; a pity you only experienced this epiphany when, for the first time, your own preferred candidate did not happen to be the Chosen One.

But before you canonize St. Hillary too far, you should recall that the stuff being thrown at Joe the Plumber comes right out of Hillary's old playbook. Do you remember when the Monica story first came out (and the accusations against Bill did not come out of Monica's mouth-- which was apparently too full at the time-- but from someone else)? Do you remember that, within 48 hours of the story breaking, we knew ALL ABOUT Monica's psychiatric history, about how she had a penchant for chasing after 'powerful men' and making false accusations against them that were all fantasies on her part? We knew the names of the professors she had supposedly pursued before she latched onto Bill, etc. And it was not just with respect to Monica that this happened: recall as well all the stuff about Paula 'Trailer Trash' (per James Carville) Jones, and the similar 'deep background' information that seemed to emerge with respect to every other woman who seemed to have something going on with Bill (i.e., the way Hillary's team dealt with the Bimbo Eruptions). That bit of the 'politics of personal destruction' is part and parcel of the Clintonian legacy.

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

Joe is an undocumented plumber. NTTIAWWT

[Jeemie]

All this talk about Joe the Plumber is simply to distract from the main point- which should be an in-depth discussion on Obama's tax plans, and if they would do for "the little guy" what he says they will do.

And here we are, all supposedly intelligent, politically-aware folks, letting ourselves get distracted from doing just that, and instead getting caught up in irrelevant minutiae such as whether or not Joe has a plumbing license, and whether or not he owes back taxes.

Why don't we instead actually DEBATE THE ISSUE that was brought to the fore by Joe's questions- how will Obama's tax plans help or hurt an economy that's probably already in recession and will be sure to get worse?

[Sir_Galahad]

In my opinion, if Obama had gotten half the scrutiny by the media that JtP has gotten, this would be an entirely different race.

[silverscreenselect]

Why don't we instead actually DEBATE THE ISSUE that was brought to the fore by Joe's questions- how will Obama's tax plans help or hurt an economy that's probably already in recession and will be sure to get worse?

The issue to me has always been character, or lack thereof, that Obama has displayed. While I don't think that raising taxes on anyone at this exact point in economic time is wise, the concept of doing something to reduce the deficit isn't wrong, and the idea that those who profited the most from Bush's two-pronged economic policy (cut taxes mostly at the top and spend like crazy) should do the bulk of repairing the damage isn't a bad idea.

What's wrong is (1) Obama mischaracterized a tax plan as "spreading the wealth," which to me shows, not surprisingly, he has very little idea what he is talking about in economic matters and no real firm commitment to any particular economic policy, and (2) rather than discuss either the issue or Obama's botched response, they are going hammer and tongs after a guy whose only offenses appear to be taking Obama up on his offer to ask a question and trying to make himself sound a little bit more important when talking to a VIP.

So Joe is in economic hot water, a single father, trying along with his boss to eke out a living and skimping on what is in actuality an exorbitant comprehensive licensing scheme that municipalities use all over the country to try to nickel-and-dime contractors to death and which about 95% of small contractors ignore to a greater or lesser extent. Joe wasn't trying to do something he wasn't qualified to do; his boss was trying to avoid paying a licensing fee that covered a small part of the area where they worked.

Now one would think Joe is Obama's kind of guy; someone who is struggling, working hard, needing a break, trying to live the American dream. Obama, Biden, the media and Obama's supporters all gave Joe the back of their hands and threw him under the bus.

ANd there's been more investigation into Joe's plumbing license since the debate than any of Obama's statements about his relationship with ACORN and Ayers.

[Bob Juch]

Why don't we instead actually DEBATE THE ISSUE that was brought to the fore by Joe's questions- how will Obama's tax plans help or hurt an economy that's probably already in recession and will be sure to get worse?

The issue to me has always been character, or lack thereof, that Obama has displayed. While I don't think that raising taxes on anyone at this exact point in economic time is wise, the concept of doing something to reduce the deficit isn't wrong, and the idea that those who profited the most from Bush's two-pronged economic policy (cut taxes mostly at the top and spend like crazy) should do the bulk of repairing the damage isn't a bad idea.

What's wrong is (1) Obama mischaracterized a tax plan as "spreading the wealth," which to me shows, not surprisingly, he has very little idea what he is talking about in economic matters and no real firm commitment to any particular economic policy, and (2) rather than discuss either the issue or Obama's botched response, they are going hammer and tongs after a guy whose only offenses appear to be taking Obama up on his offer to ask a question and trying to make himself sound a little bit more important when talking to a VIP.

So Joe is in economic hot water, a single father, trying along with his boss to eke out a living and skimping on what is in actuality an exorbitant comprehensive licensing scheme that municipalities use all over the country to try to nickel-and-dime contractors to death and which about 95% of small contractors ignore to a greater or lesser extent. Joe wasn't trying to do something he wasn't qualified to do; his boss was trying to avoid paying a licensing fee that covered a small part of the area where they worked.

Now one would think Joe is Obama's kind of guy; someone who is struggling, working hard, needing a break, trying to live the American dream. Obama, Biden, the media and Obama's supporters all gave Joe the back of their hands and threw him under the bus.

ANd there's been more investigation into Joe's plumbing license since the debate than any of Obama's statements about his relationship with ACORN and Ayers.

What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, including an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter?

What if Obama attended five different colleges, dropped out of four of them, before finally graduating with a D plus average.

What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his graduating class of 899?

What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was the divorced candidate?

What if Obama was the candidate who left his first wife after a severe disfiguring car accident, when she no longer measured up to his physical standards?

What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair with her while he was still married?

What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to painkillers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization?

What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five?

What if Obama was the one known to display publicly, on many occasions, a serious anger management problem?

This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another, just because there is a color difference.

[silvercamaro]

Thank you for sharing your latest forwarded e-mail with us.

[flockofseagulls104]

Why don't we instead actually DEBATE THE ISSUE that was brought to the fore by Joe's questions- how will Obama's tax plans help or hurt an economy that's probably already in recession and will be sure to get worse?

The issue to me has always been character, or lack thereof, that Obama has displayed. While I don't think that raising taxes on anyone at this exact point in economic time is wise, the concept of doing something to reduce the deficit isn't wrong, and the idea that those who profited the most from Bush's two-pronged economic policy (cut taxes mostly at the top and spend like crazy) should do the bulk of repairing the damage isn't a bad idea.

What's wrong is (1) Obama mischaracterized a tax plan as "spreading the wealth," which to me shows, not surprisingly, he has very little idea what he is talking about in economic matters and no real firm commitment to any particular economic policy, and (2) rather than discuss either the issue or Obama's botched response, they are going hammer and tongs after a guy whose only offenses appear to be taking Obama up on his offer to ask a question and trying to make himself sound a little bit more important when talking to a VIP.

So Joe is in economic hot water, a single father, trying along with his boss to eke out a living and skimping on what is in actuality an exorbitant comprehensive licensing scheme that municipalities use all over the country to try to nickel-and-dime contractors to death and which about 95% of small contractors ignore to a greater or lesser extent. Joe wasn't trying to do something he wasn't qualified to do; his boss was trying to avoid paying a licensing fee that covered a small part of the area where they worked.

Now one would think Joe is Obama's kind of guy; someone who is struggling, working hard, needing a break, trying to live the American dream. Obama, Biden, the media and Obama's supporters all gave Joe the back of their hands and threw him under the bus.

ANd there's been more investigation into Joe's plumbing license since the debate than any of Obama's statements about his relationship with ACORN and Ayers.

What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, including an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter?

What if Obama attended five different colleges, dropped out of four of them, before finally graduating with a D plus average.

What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his graduating class of 899?

What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was the divorced candidate?

What if Obama was the candidate who left his first wife after a severe disfiguring car accident, when she no longer measured up to his physical standards?

What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair with her while he was still married?

What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to painkillers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization?

What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five?

What if Obama was the one known to display publicly, on many occasions, a serious anger management problem?

This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another, just because there is a color difference.

This is what's called Playing the race card.

Look at your own racism before you accuse others of it.

[PlacentiaSoccerMom]

Thank you for sharing your latest forwarded e-mail with us.

[Rexer25]

This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another, just because there is a color difference.

It is, at the very least, irresponsible to accuse someone of racism just because they don't want Obama to be the next president. To smear all McCain backers with the same brush is the kind of witless, divisive accusation we've had far too much of in this country for too long. Bob, can you point out 1 post throughout this whole campaign that is racist? And, I mean, obviously racist, or even "read between the lines" racist, not just "I'm against Obama so you can infer I'm" racist.

You do no one no good with such statements. Thanks for doing your part to keep our country polarized.

[flockofseagulls104]

Why don't we instead actually DEBATE THE ISSUE that was brought to the fore by Joe's questions- how will Obama's tax plans help or hurt an economy that's probably already in recession and will be sure to get worse?

The issue to me has always been character, or lack thereof, that Obama has displayed. While I don't think that raising taxes on anyone at this exact point in economic time is wise, the concept of doing something to reduce the deficit isn't wrong, and the idea that those who profited the most from Bush's two-pronged economic policy (cut taxes mostly at the top and spend like crazy) should do the bulk of repairing the damage isn't a bad idea.

What's wrong is (1) Obama mischaracterized a tax plan as "spreading the wealth," which to me shows, not surprisingly, he has very little idea what he is talking about in economic matters and no real firm commitment to any particular economic policy, and (2) rather than discuss either the issue or Obama's botched response, they are going hammer and tongs after a guy whose only offenses appear to be taking Obama up on his offer to ask a question and trying to make himself sound a little bit more important when talking to a VIP.

So Joe is in economic hot water, a single father, trying along with his boss to eke out a living and skimping on what is in actuality an exorbitant comprehensive licensing scheme that municipalities use all over the country to try to nickel-and-dime contractors to death and which about 95% of small contractors ignore to a greater or lesser extent. Joe wasn't trying to do something he wasn't qualified to do; his boss was trying to avoid paying a licensing fee that covered a small part of the area where they worked.

Now one would think Joe is Obama's kind of guy; someone who is struggling, working hard, needing a break, trying to live the American dream. Obama, Biden, the media and Obama's supporters all gave Joe the back of their hands and threw him under the bus.

ANd there's been more investigation into Joe's plumbing license since the debate than any of Obama's statements about his relationship with ACORN and Ayers.

What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, including an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter?

What if Obama attended five different colleges, dropped out of four of them, before finally graduating with a D plus average.

What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his graduating class of 899?

What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was the divorced candidate?

What if Obama was the candidate who left his first wife after a severe disfiguring car accident, when she no longer measured up to his physical standards?

What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair with her while he was still married?

What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to painkillers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization?

What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five?

What if Obama was the one known to display publicly, on many occasions, a serious anger management problem?

This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another, just because there is a color difference.

That has to be one of the most despicable things posted on this board.

What did you, or should I say, the author of this diatribe hope to accomplish? The changing of minds, or the perpetuation of an ignorant sterotype?

Most conservatives would vote for someone like Condi Rice in a heartbeat if we had the choice, over both Obama and McCain. Their level of experience, or lack thereof, being about equal, most would choose Palin over Obama. Are we sexist as well? How dare that author accuse anyone who would dare support McCain of being racist.

I suspect there are far more true racists in the Democrat party than in the Republican party, especially if you include the element of the black community that seek to perpetuate racism for their own benefit.

The posting of this will not change any minds, but it does show a certain level of ignorance and calls into question the judgement of anyone who thinks this is some kind of valid argument about something.

[Rexer25]

I meant to add:

I'll be in the M.L. I hope the Guinness tap is working.

[BackInTex]

Thank you for sharing your latest forwarded e-mail with us.

Its one thing to post the contents of a forwarded email

It is another to post it as your own.

[BackInTex]

In my opinion, if Obama had gotten half the scrutiny by the media that JtP has gotten, this would be an entirely different race.

Mc Cain vs Clinton

And I actually would pause before pulling the lever for McCain.

[Jeemie]

Bob-

What in the WORLD does your post have to do with ANYTHING being discussed here?

Are you THAT far gone in partisan blindness that you mindlessly respond with talking points no matter whether they're appropriate or not?

Maybe I made a false assumption when I declared everyone here to be politically aware.

I am absolutely stunned by your post.

I know people get caught up in their candidates to the point of repeating talking points, but up until now, the talking points at least SUPERFICIALLY dealt with what was being discussed in the thread where they were posted.