RIH Osama Bin Laden

[TheConfessor]

Second, I wish they'd simply heaved him overboard with no Muslim prayers, weighted down with a couple belts of pork sausage.

That certainly is a lovely sentiment, but I don't think your plan is very well thought out. Pork sausage tends to have a very high fat content, probably higher in fat than the body that you are trying to weigh down, and fat has a lower density than water. So I'm afraid the pork sausage belts would act as flotation devices. Your eagerness to impose the maximum possible humiliation may be causing you to overlook such practical considerations.

[Bob78164]

My sources say they did not know Bin Laden was ever in the compound. All they knew is that there was a "high value" target there.

I highly doubt your "sources" actually had anything to do with this raid. The people who went on the raid and those who briefed them are not going to blab to the Huffington Post the day after the mission. And it makes no sense whatsoever to send troops on a highly dangerous mission like this deep in enemy territory without identifying their target for the simple reason that they needed to know who to go after and whether to conduct a search in case bin Laden was hiding in a closet somewhere once the shooting started.

I read (I think in either The New York Times or The Los Angeles Times) that they were only approximately 60-80% sure bin Laden was there when President Obama gave the go order. --Bob

[littlebeast13]

And now that we're all adither about whether it's right to celebrate, rejoice or dance in the streets over his delayed departure, where in the hell were all the bleeding hearts all these years when he was wanted DEAD or at best, barely alive. I truly don't recall any faction calling for any kind of mercy for his pursuit or what should ultimately happen to him, or courtesies afforded him, when his maggot magnet ass could finally be found. Truly, where were they???

I don't think a single person was suggesting that they felt sympathy for him, that any mercy should have been shown him, or that it was wrong to take him out.

This question of whether or not to dance in the streets has nothing whatsoever to do with HIM. And the use of the term 'bleeding hearts' is a cheap cliche, a way to avoid understanding what people are actually SAYING. Nobody's heart is bleeding for Osama bin Laden.

Do you think BiT could EVER be described as a bleeding heart?

No. BiT's heart is in good shape, but I think he caved a little.


And you're responding to a point I didn't make. The hearts are bleeding regarding how some people are responding to his death. I don't recall ever hearing previously what should be the appropriate response to his demise.

For the record, I am the last person who would be a bleeding heart for anyone, and mine certainly does not bleed for OBL or any of his ilk....

I just think its somewhat hilarious the way everyone is reacting to this..... like it's a big deal....

Had this happened within a year or two after 9/11.... yep. Dance in the streets. Drag his body down Times Square. I'm all over that....

10 years later..... please!

He outfoxed us for a whole damn decade. He had plenty of time to ensure his legacy of terror would live on after his eventual demise. We are no better off today than we were last week....

He was nothing more than a figurehead for The War on Terror..... and at this stage in the game, an empty one at that.....

At best, it's delayed vengeance for 9/11 and nothing else other than Satan Dolittle now has a new minion to torture.....

So I'm not a bleeding heart.... just apathetic and a bit amused at the overreaction....

lb13

[Jeemie]

So I'm not a bleeding heart.... just apathetic and a bit amused at the overreaction....

lb13

Do you understand human beings at all?

If you did, you would understand that while everything you said in your post is true, this is a cathartic moment for the American people, and the reaction...or over-reaction...is completely understandable.

America was traumatized by 9/11...it brought home our country's extreme vulnerability in the modern world and shook our sense of invinicibility.

So the reaction we're seeing is completely normal...and should also be relatively short-lived.

Or so I hope...because otherwise, it's not a reaction to be "amused" about...it would be kind of dangerous.

[littlebeast13]

So I'm not a bleeding heart.... just apathetic and a bit amused at the overreaction....

lb13

Do you understand human beings at all?

If you did, you would understand that while everything you said in your post is true, this is a cathartic moment for the American people, and the reaction...or over-reaction...is completely understandable.

America was traumatized by 9/11...it brought home our country's extreme vulnerability in the modern world and shook our sense of invinicibility.

So the reaction we're seeing is completely normal...and should also be relatively short-lived.

Or so I hope...because otherwise, it's not a reaction to be "amused" about...it would be kind of dangerous.

This may lie at the heart of why I don't get the bin Laden reaction. I think I have a different view of 9/11 than most people do....

It's not the deep-running scars of the directly affected that surprise me, its the depth of the indirect ones I continually underestimate....

lb13

[Jeemie]

It's not the deep-running scars of the directly affected that surprise me, its the depth of the indirect ones I continually underestimate....

Simple wounded pride, that's all.

As I said, most Americans have this sense of invulnerability. We've been the "top dogs" in the world for so long, we feel like nothing bad should happen to us as a country.

And when it does, someone has to pay.

[Flybrick]

Simple wounded pride, that's all.

As I said, most Americans have this sense of invulnerability. We've been the "top dogs" in the world for so long, we feel like nothing bad should happen to us as a country.

And when it does, someone has to pay.

Wounded pride? To still be pissed that nearly 3,000 folks were killed in a sneak attack using our own freedoms - then free ability to move about, lack of suspicion about others generally, believing that the world was generally good and that we represented the pinnacle of what was good - that's a bad thing?

I would say that 9/11, besides being a direct form of aggression against those who couldn't know or retaliate, was a loss of innocence for the U.S.

For that, someone has to pay.

Tenfold.

That, and the little matter of publicly calling for and seeking to implement the destruction of our nation and way of life.

That we are doing to ourselves.

[Jeemie]

Simple wounded pride, that's all.

As I said, most Americans have this sense of invulnerability. We've been the "top dogs" in the world for so long, we feel like nothing bad should happen to us as a country.

And when it does, someone has to pay.

Wounded pride? To still be pissed that nearly 3,000 folks were killed in a sneak attack using our own freedoms - then free ability to move about, lack of suspicion about others generally, believing that the world was generally good and that we represented the pinnacle of what was good - that's a bad thing?

I would say that 9/11, besides being a direct form of aggression against those who couldn't know or retaliate, was a loss of innocence for the U.S.

For that, someone has to pay.

Tenfold.

That, and the little matter of publicly calling for and seeking to implement the destruction of our nation and way of life.

That we are doing to ourselves.

Thank you for proving my point for me.

[Flybrick]

Thank you for proving my point for me.

Pray tell, how did I do that with my post?

Wounded pride does not equal loss of innocence or the right of self-defense.

While I'm at it, your post seemed to imply that what occurred on 9/11 was to be expected and/or was ok since we're no better than anyone else.

Did I correctly interpret the gist of your post?

[flockofseagulls104]

Before Bin Laden decided to wage war on the world:

-Air Travel was somewhat pleasant
--- We didn't have to wait on long lines so that we could be searched, forced to take off shoes and belts and other things
--- Our friends and relatives could actually go to the gate to see us off
--- We didn't have our baggage gone through by strangers
- People weren't treated as suspects unless they deserved to be
- We didn't have to be searched and scanned before we entered buildings and sporting/entertainment events
- People didn't strap bombs to themselves in order to kill as many innocent people as they could.
- The vast majority of people in the world never saw video of a person's head being cut off.
- We didn't have to shell out billions of dollars in tax money for a Homeland Security Dept and all the things that came with it.
- Islamophobia, whether real or imagined, was not a very big issue.
- Companies and businesses didn't have to spend billions of dollars to protect themselves against terrorist threats, real or imagined.
- This country wasn't involved in two wars (whether you feel they were justifed or not), and we didn't lose thousands of young lives to these wars.
- Thousands of innocent people weren't killed each year by operatives inspired by him.


I could go on. This man was evil and he changed the world for the worse, and we won't recover from his actions in my life time, if we ever do.

[Jeemie]

Thank you for proving my point for me.

Pray tell, how did I do that with my post?

Wounded pride does not equal loss of innocence or the right of self-defense.

While I'm at it, your post seemed to imply that what occurred on 9/11 was to be expected and/or was ok since we're no better than anyone else.

Did I correctly interpret the gist of your post?

I am not talking about the morality of the act itself.

I am talking about the American reaction to the event itself, and to the events afterwards, culminating with the death of Bin Laden himself.

And much of that reaction is out of proportion to the actual consequences/results of the events (i.e. we're celebrating the death of Bin Laden like it is V-E or V-J Day, when the actual consequences of the death of Bin Laden are actually going to be quite minimal).

And that to me speaks of a "This is America! Bad things just don't happen to us!" reaction/over-reaction.

PS In many respects, we ARE "no better than anyone else". The idea that we are somehow exempt from the normal forces of history, or that there is some qualitative difference in being an American than in being a member of some other nation-state, is nothing more than an expression of nationalistic pride, and not based on anything concrete or real.

I'm sure it makes for great talk radio or political speeches, though.

[Jeemie]

Before Bin Laden decided to wage war on the world:

-Air Travel was somewhat pleasant
--- We didn't have to wait on long lines so that we could be searched, forced to take off shoes and belts and other things
--- Our friends and relatives could actually go to the gate to see us off
--- We didn't have our baggage gone through by strangers
- People weren't treated as suspects unless they deserved to be
- We didn't have to be searched and scanned before we entered buildings and sporting/entertainment events
- People didn't strap bombs to themselves in order to kill as many innocent people as they could.
- The vast majority of people in the world never saw video of a person's head being cut off.
- We didn't have to shell out billions of dollars in tax money for a Homeland Security Dept and all the things that came with it.
- Islamophobia, whether real or imagined, was not a very big issue.
- Companies and businesses didn't have to spend billions of dollars to protect themselves against terrorist threats, real or imagined.
- This country wasn't involved in two wars (whether you feel they were justifed or not), and we didn't lose thousands of young lives to these wars.
- Thousands of innocent people weren't killed each year by operatives inspired by him.


I could go on. This man was evil and he changed the world for the worse, and we won't recover from his actions in my life time, if we ever do.

And a lot of what you listed above was an over-reaction to what happened on 9/11.

Sorry- but it was.

Although what happened on 9/11 was heinous, and an act of supreme immorality, it was, in fact, a very "lucky" happenstance. It was not a display of great skill and cunning that caused the act to succeed, and the changes we have made afterwards, had they been in place pre-9/11, were very unlikely to have added to the likelihood that it would have been prevented.

The scope of the tragedy caused us to vastly over-inflate the capabilities of Al Qaeda, and caused us to waste huge amounts of time and money for very minimal return on investment.

[littlebeast13]

Before Bin Laden decided to wage war on the world:

-Air Travel was somewhat pleasant
--- We didn't have to wait on long lines so that we could be searched, forced to take off shoes and belts and other things
--- Our friends and relatives could actually go to the gate to see us off
--- We didn't have our baggage gone through by strangers
- People weren't treated as suspects unless they deserved to be
- We didn't have to be searched and scanned before we entered buildings and sporting/entertainment events
- People didn't strap bombs to themselves in order to kill as many innocent people as they could.
- The vast majority of people in the world never saw video of a person's head being cut off.
- We didn't have to shell out billions of dollars in tax money for a Homeland Security Dept and all the things that came with it.
- Islamophobia, whether real or imagined, was not a very big issue.
- Companies and businesses didn't have to spend billions of dollars to protect themselves against terrorist threats, real or imagined.
- This country wasn't involved in two wars (whether you feel they were justifed or not), and we didn't lose thousands of young lives to these wars.
- Thousands of innocent people weren't killed each year by operatives inspired by him.


I could go on. This man was evil and he changed the world for the worse, and we won't recover from his actions in my life time, if we ever do.

And a lot of what you listed above was an over-reaction to what happened on 9/11.

Sorry- but it was.

Saying it was an over-reaction might very well be an understatement even.....

Flock's world view cracks me up....

lb13

[Flybrick]

I am not talking about the morality of the act itself.

I am.

And much of that reaction is out of proportion to the actual consequences/results of the events (i.e. we're celebrating the death of Bin Laden like it is V-E or V-J Day, when the actual consequences of the death of Bin Laden are actually going to be quite minimal).

I agree that much of the reaction has been over the top; largely egged on by the ever-hungry media and its supplicants, the politicians.

But, the death of the force behind the 9/11 attacks is deeply satisfying. I'm cro-magnon enough to feel "Payback's a b1tch" and mean it.

I also believe the consequences will be larger than you think. I bet this will become Obama's "out" for leaving Afghanistan. Where this problem will grow and fester again. I don't have the solution, however. I don't know if there is one.

PS In many respects, we ARE "no better than anyone else". The idea that we are somehow exempt from the normal forces of history, or that there is some qualitative difference in being an American than in being a member of some other nation-state, is nothing more than an expression of nationalistic pride, and not based on anything concrete or real.

This is a philosophical divide that will never be bridged. National pride? Sure. But more so, the long history of being welcoming of all who wanted to share the dream of being whatever you wanted to be, or at least a good shot at it, free of government interference IS a qualitative difference. A nation based on an ideal and not a race, tribe, or other divide is unique in the world.

I actually agree with you regarding your reply to flock. We surrendered a lot of freedoms because of 9/11 that we didn't have to. On the other hand, mass casualty events tend to do that. Government has an obligation to not let that happen (again). We have, and are, sitting back and surrendering our liberties. I don't have the answer for this either.

So the satisfaction at the payback death of our enemy is at least some comfort. To me anyway.

[Jeemie]

Saying it was an over-reaction might very well be an understatement even.....

Flock's world view cracks me up....

lb13

Well- believing that the things he mentioned (like suicide bombers or protecting against threats) didn't happen "before Bin Laden" is a shocking indictment as to the average American's ignorance as to what goes on in the 94% of the rest of the world that isn't the United States...

[littlebeast13]

Saying it was an over-reaction might very well be an understatement even.....

Flock's world view cracks me up....

lb13

Well- believing that the things he mentioned (like suicide bombers or protecting against threats) didn't happen "before Bin Laden" is a shocking indictment as to the average American's ignorance as to what goes on in the 94% of the rest of the world that isn't the United States...

Yes.... I am about as ignorant as they come when it comes to current events of the past decade, yet even I could have picked apart that list flock posted like a pro....

lb13

[flockofseagulls104]

Wow.... That's all I have to say....

[silverscreenselect]

The scope of the tragedy caused us to vastly over-inflate the capabilities of Al Qaeda, and caused us to waste huge amounts of time and money for very minimal return on investment.

The prosecution of Bernie Madoff represents a large expenditure of time for a minimal return on the investment. Does that mean we should have given him a free pass?

It took the Israelis years to track down the Adolf Eichmann and the Munich terrorists. Nazi war criminals were being captured and convicted in the 1980s and 90s.

For 200 years, our foreign policy was based on a simple premise. Attack us and we will retaliate. We did that with the Barbary Pirates and the Japanese in World War II. We should have done that with Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban, no matter how long it took. Unfortunately, thanks to Bush, we got panicked into a new "doctrine," which, as near as I can tell is, if we think you are bad enough or you might do something to us, then we may do something to you. So we lost sight of Bin Laden and failed to finish the job in Afghanistan in 2001. And that's what got us into the mess in Iraq and that's what is messing things up in Libya right now.

But that doesn't detract from the fact that going after Bin Laden, whether in 2001 or 2011, was the right thing to do.

[Jeemie]

The scope of the tragedy caused us to vastly over-inflate the capabilities of Al Qaeda, and caused us to waste huge amounts of time and money for very minimal return on investment.

The prosecution of Bernie Madoff represents a large expenditure of time for a minimal return on the investment. Does that mean we should have given him a free pass?

It took the Israelis years to track down the Adolf Eichmann and the Munich terrorists. Nazi war criminals were being captured and convicted in the 1980s and 90s.

For 200 years, our foreign policy was based on a simple premise. Attack us and we will retaliate. We did that with the Barbary Pirates and the Japanese in World War II. We should have done that with Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban, no matter how long it took. Unfortunately, thanks to Bush, we got panicked into a new "doctrine," which, as near as I can tell is, if we think you are bad enough or you might do something to us, then we may do something to you. So we lost sight of Bin Laden and failed to finish the job in Afghanistan in 2001. And that's what got us into the mess in Iraq and that's what is messing things up in Libya right now.

But that doesn't detract from the fact that going after Bin Laden, whether in 2001 or 2011, was the right thing to do.

Where did I say going after Bin Laden was the wrong thing to do?

I'm talking about all the other crap that we did in the decade which didn't do one whit to make us safer.

Additionally, while going after Bin laden was right and proper, to celebrate his death like it is V-E/V-J Day is vastly over-inflating his relative importance.

He needed to die, no question about it.

But the overall effect this will have on American security is minimal.

[flockofseagulls104]

Wow.
Whether you consider some of these things over reactions or not - they are the current state of affairs and they weren't the current state of affairs 1 - 2 - 3 decades ago. And in my warped world view, they aren't acceptable.

Whether some of these things existed in the rest of the world before they became widely reported on here in the US, in my warped world view, they aren't acceptable.

And the reason all these things are now current reality is because of Bin Laden and those that have the same world view as he did.

I prefer my warped world view.

[Flybrick]

The scope of the tragedy caused us to vastly over-inflate the capabilities of Al Qaeda, and caused us to waste huge amounts of time and money for very minimal return on investment.

The prosecution of Bernie Madoff represents a large expenditure of time for a minimal return on the investment. Does that mean we should have given him a free pass?

It took the Israelis years to track down the Adolf Eichmann and the Munich terrorists. Nazi war criminals were being captured and convicted in the 1980s and 90s.

For 200 years, our foreign policy was based on a simple premise. Attack us and we will retaliate. We did that with the Barbary Pirates and the Japanese in World War II. We should have done that with Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban, no matter how long it took. Unfortunately, thanks to Bush, we got panicked into a new "doctrine," which, as near as I can tell is, if we think you are bad enough or you might do something to us, then we may do something to you. So we lost sight of Bin Laden and failed to finish the job in Afghanistan in 2001. And that's what got us into the mess in Iraq and that's what is messing things up in Libya right now.

But that doesn't detract from the fact that going after Bin Laden, whether in 2001 or 2011, was the right thing to do.

The end is nigh, I, mostly, agree with SSS.

I never agreed with the Bush Doctrine of "preemptive war," but let's also hold Congress responsible for this as well. They both voted for a supporting resolution (never mind about a formal declaration of war, I guess we don't do that anymore), and paid for that war, year after year, including the Democrats. It took/takes at least two branches of government to tango.

As for the rest, I agree.

[silverscreenselect]

And the reason all these things are now current reality is because of Bin Laden and those that have the same world view as he did.

Flock, you are confusing "reality" in the sense of what is actually going on in the world, with "reality" in the sense of what the news media choose to report on and the American public and government choose to fixate upon.

[flockofseagulls104]

And the reason all these things are now current reality is because of Bin Laden and those that have the same world view as he did.

Flock, you are confusing "reality" in the sense of what is actually going on in the world, with "reality" in the sense of what the news media choose to report on and the American public and government choose to fixate upon.

I am confusing nothing. To me, a homocide bomber is just as horrifying now as it was before we became desensitized to it. Maybe I never heard about people doing these kinds of things before 2001 or whatever, and maybe people were doing it before I heard about it, but it is still one of most disgusting, reprehensible (and many other things that there are no words for) act that can ever be performed by anyone. But now that we hear of it being done every week or so, we say 'so what?'

That is not acceptable in my world view.

[Flybrick]

And the reason all these things are now current reality is because of Bin Laden and those that have the same world view as he did.

Flock, you are confusing "reality" in the sense of what is actually going on in the world, with "reality" in the sense of what the news media choose to report on and the American public and government choose to fixate upon.

I'll let Flock speak for himself, but there is a sizable segment, primarily composed of Muslim fanatics (actually, a few smart ones that promise untold rewards to a whole bunch of young, ignorant (as in no education not a perjorative) recruits who are seeking a quick way to a higher standard of living.

"If only the U.S. and the West weren't here to keep us down, WE'd be the ones with the BMWs and lattes."

Despite a millenia showing a of lack of success.

They want to kill us - you, me, our families. There is no negotiating, there is no "can't we just get along?"

I'd rather they not be given another opportunity.

[Jeemie]

And the reason all these things are now current reality is because of Bin Laden and those that have the same world view as he did.

Flock, you are confusing "reality" in the sense of what is actually going on in the world, with "reality" in the sense of what the news media choose to report on and the American public and government choose to fixate upon.

I am confusing nothing. To me, a homocide bomber is just as horrifying now as it was before we became desensitized to it. Maybe I never heard about people doing these kinds of things before 2001 or whatever, and maybe people were doing it before I heard about it, but it is still one of most disgusting, reprehensible (and many other things that there are no words for) act that can ever be performed by anyone. But now that we hear of it being done every week or so, we say 'so what?'

That is not acceptable in my world view.

No one says that they are acceptable.

We are simply saying these things went on in the world before Bin Laden, and will continue to go on after him.

In that sense, his death has minimal impact.

I readily admit he a had a GREAT impact on the American Psyche...hence, the reaction we are seeing to his death, which, IMHO, is out of proportion to his actual importance (except for the 9/11 victims- they seem to be the only group that's giving the appropriate response).