Question for you grammar people

[Bob Juch]

tlynn 78 said:

Not in the U.S. I'm not sure about British English either, but in the U.S. it would be "James's". For some reason the only exception to that rule is "Jesus'".

It's not a question of U.S. vs. British English. Saucy is following the traditional rule she was taught, as was I. Alas, that rule has been "simplified," because -- in my opinion -- someone decided that most schoolchildren were incapable of remembering it. (I might argue that too many teachers were unable to tell the difference, but that's an argument for another day.)

Ken Jennings has related the story of how his recent book, "Ken Jennings's Trivia Almanac" gained the extra S over his objections. It will always look wrong to some of us.

I disagree that the rule was simplified. Simple would be to never use "*s's". Adding "'s" after an "s" is the only way to be able to tell the difference between singular names ending in "s" and plurals.

[silvercamaro]

I'm the one with the belly hair.

We'll take your word for this, Bob. No, please, keep your shirt on!

[T_Bone0806]

Too bad I wasn't here earlier to answer this. I speak English real good.

[tlynn78]

Bob Juch wrote:


I'm the one with the belly hair

.

We'll take your word for this, Bob. No, please, keep your shirt on

**


I feel like I'm on "To Tell The Truth"

"No, I"M the one with the belly hair.."


**okay, so I don't know how to do the pyramid quotes thing.


t.

[Peggles]

If the intent is to announce a training program for assistants, then it should be written Assistants' Training Program. The plural possessive is clearly called for here. Think Teachers' Lounge, i.e. a lounge for teachers. The fact that this usage is often ignored - as in Dept. of Veterans Affairs - is irrelevant. The department should read Veterans' Affairs. Every grammar text that I used in thirty-four years of teaching English would agree.

[Bob Juch]

If the intent is to announce a training program for assistants, then it should be written Assistants' Training Program. The plural possessive is clearly called for here. Think Teachers' Lounge, i.e. a lounge for teachers. The fact that this usage is often ignored - as in Dept. of Veterans Affairs - is irrelevant. The department should read Veterans' Affairs. Every grammar text that I used in thirty-four years of teaching English would agree.

Yes, but as Pea explained, it's the Training Program for Assistants, not the Training Program of Assistants.

[Catfish]

If the intent is to announce a training program for assistants, then it should be written Assistants' Training Program. The plural possessive is clearly called for here. Think Teachers' Lounge, i.e. a lounge for teachers. The fact that this usage is often ignored - as in Dept. of Veterans Affairs - is irrelevant. The department should read Veterans' Affairs. Every grammar text that I used in thirty-four years of teaching English would agree.

Yes, but as Pea explained, it's the Training Program for Assistants, not the Training Program of Assistants.

Yep. The training is being done to the assistants. Objective not possessive.

[Catfish]

If the intent is to announce a training program for assistants, then it should be written Assistants' Training Program. The plural possessive is clearly called for here. Think Teachers' Lounge, i.e. a lounge for teachers. The fact that this usage is often ignored - as in Dept. of Veterans Affairs - is irrelevant. The department should read Veterans' Affairs. Every grammar text that I used in thirty-four years of teaching English would agree.

Yes, but as Pea explained, it's the Training Program for Assistants, not the Training Program of Assistants.

Yep. The training is being done to the assistants. Objective not possessive.

Actually, the training is being done to people who will be assistants after the training. Now my head is starting to hurt. And I'm talking to myself.

[christie1111]

I am glad I have no idea!

Whew!

Avoided that train wreck!

[Peggles]

If the intent is to announce a training program for assistants, then it should be written Assistants' Training Program. The plural possessive is clearly called for here. Think Teachers' Lounge, i.e. a lounge for teachers. The fact that this usage is often ignored - as in Dept. of Veterans Affairs - is irrelevant. The department should read Veterans' Affairs. Every grammar text that I used in thirty-four years of teaching English would agree.

Yes, but as Pea explained, it's the Training Program for Assistants, not the Training Program of Assistants.

That is exactly why it should read Assistants' Training Program - a program for assistants. Examples: ladies' room, officers' club, senators' vote.

[mrkelley23]

I'm not sure if this clarifies, but I kind of like it. I found it on a .edu website:

"Possessives versus Adjectival Labels

Don't confuse an adjectival label (sometimes called an "attributive noun") ending in s with the need for a possessive. Sometimes it's not easy to tell which is which. Do you attend a writers' conference or a writers conference? If it's a group of writers attending a conference, you want the plural ending, writers. If the conference actually belongs to the writers, then you'd want the possessive form, writers'. If you can insert another modifer between the -s word and whatever it modifies, you're probably dealing with a possessive. Additional modifiers will also help determine which form to use.

* Patriots quarterback Drew Bledsoe threw three touchdown passes. (plural as modifier)
* The Patriots' [new] quarterback, Drew Bledsoe, threw three touchdown passes. (possessive as modifier]"

[kayrharris]

I'm with Catfish....my head hurts.


You should see me try to figure out the plural possessive of my last name.

[Peggles]

I'm not sure if this clarifies, but I kind of like it. I found it on a .edu website:

"Possessives versus Adjectival Labels

Don't confuse an adjectival label (sometimes called an "attributive noun") ending in s with the need for a possessive. Sometimes it's not easy to tell which is which. Do you attend a writers' conference or a writers conference? If it's a group of writers attending a conference, you want the plural ending, writers. If the conference actually belongs to the writers, then you'd want the possessive form, writers'. If you can insert another modifer between the -s word and whatever it modifies, you're probably dealing with a possessive. Additional modifiers will also help determine which form to use.

* Patriots quarterback Drew Bledsoe threw three touchdown passes. (plural as modifier)
* The Patriots' [new] quarterback, Drew Bledsoe, threw three touchdown passes. (possessive as modifier]"

This is an excellent clarification, especially about the modifier. The issue in question fits your example. There is a program. What kind of program? A training program (participle modifying noun). Who is it for? Assistants. Thus the correct usage is Assistants' Training Program.

[peacock2121]

well, crap.

I left yesterday thinking I knew what it had to be called and now I don't know.

I'm with catfish.

My head hurts.

[earendel]

well, crap.

I left yesterday thinking I knew what it had to be called and now I don't know.

I'm with catfish.

My head hurts.

So call it whatever you want, and let the grammar purists be damned.

[Bob Juch]

I'm not sure if this clarifies, but I kind of like it. I found it on a .edu website:

"Possessives versus Adjectival Labels

Don't confuse an adjectival label (sometimes called an "attributive noun") ending in s with the need for a possessive. Sometimes it's not easy to tell which is which. Do you attend a writers' conference or a writers conference? If it's a group of writers attending a conference, you want the plural ending, writers. If the conference actually belongs to the writers, then you'd want the possessive form, writers'. If you can insert another modifer between the -s word and whatever it modifies, you're probably dealing with a possessive. Additional modifiers will also help determine which form to use.

* Patriots quarterback Drew Bledsoe threw three touchdown passes. (plural as modifier)
* The Patriots' [new] quarterback, Drew Bledsoe, threw three touchdown passes. (possessive as modifier]"

This is an excellent clarification, especially about the modifier. The issue in question fits your example. There is a program. What kind of program? A training program (participle modifying noun). Who is it for? Assistants. Thus the correct usage is Assistants' Training Program.

No, it's an Assistants Training Program.

[peacock2121]

LOL

It used to be louder righter

Now, it's bolder righter

[Bob Juch]

LOL

It used to be louder righter

Now, it's bolder righter

What's your racket?

I use bold because I wanted to group the two words.

[peacock2121]

LOL

It used to be louder righter

Now, it's bolder righter

What's your racket?

I use bold because I wanted to group the two words.

You are too funny.

What two words did you want to group together up there?

[Bob Juch]

LOL

It used to be louder righter

Now, it's bolder righter

What's your racket?

I use bold because I wanted to group the two words.

You are too funny.

What two words did you want to group together up there?

Assistants Training

It's not an Assistants' Training Program.

[peacock2121]

I understand.

Thank you.

[JoeBobBillyWayneTucker]

What in tarnation's this grammer stuff y'all are talkin' about? I didn't go to college, y'know, or even third grade....

[tlynn78]

You're all wrong. Except those who agreed with me.


t.

[Beebs52]

You're all wrong. Except those who agreed with me.


t.

Yeah, but you're a poopy's head.

Oops! I meant to say poopys' head.

Oop's! I meant to say poopys's heads.
Oops's!

[andrewjackson]

I'm going to vote for:

A's's'i's'tant's' Training Program

'Cause you can never have too many apostrophes.