PT-WWTBAM Transcript 08/17/09 Lee-Ann Whitlock (Rexalite)

[Bob Juch]

Looks like Sunflower has found more than three...

I believe the issue is more about the term "venue" than "kettling," as many birds kettle.

I quickly perused the links provided and only found one, from the "Florida Wildlife Hospital and Sanctuary," that mentions the term "venue." I would not consider that an independent source, however, because their "vulture facts" are parroted (sorry) word-for-word from the Turkey Vulture Society's "vulture facts" page.

Really, I didn't see that mentioned before I found all the "kettle" references...but okay...

Yes, the aforementioned FWH&S link has the term venue.

Here is something from Catalyst Magazine: http://www.catalystmagazine.net/compone ... view&ed=13

Naturalist Newsletter from August 2005: http://www.backyardnature.net/sierras/turkvult.htm

Rosamond Gifford Zoo: http://rosamondgiffordzoo.org/assets/up ... ulture.pdf

Article from 2007: http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... tml?cat=33

All of those links seem to to have used the Turkey Vulture Society as a source; the third credits them.

[Estonut]

All of those links seem to to have used the Turkey Vulture Society as a source; the third credits them.

You didn't skim to the bottom of the second one...

[sunflower]

I'm done, I mean I think I've found plenty of sources.

I think while it is not common, both kettle and venue are used out there by bird lovers and people in bird related industries, to relate to vultures. But like I said earlier, she should do what she feels is best for herself.

And just because I found this stuff doesn't make it suck less. Sorry, Rexalite, that you got one of WWTBAM's crappy obscure questions. I get it.

[sunflower]

All of those links seem to to have used the Turkey Vulture Society as a source; the third credits them.

You didn't skim to the bottom of the second one...

That's not using it as a source, it's telling you to go there for more information.

[Estonut]

All of those links seem to to have used the Turkey Vulture Society as a source; the third credits them.

You didn't skim to the bottom of the second one...

That's not using it as a source, it's telling you to go there for more information.

My bad...

While looking for the above information I ran into some other interesting facts about vultures. For example:

* Discounting the nearly extinct California Condor, in North America we have two vulture species, the Turkey Vulture found nearly throughout the US, and the Black Vulture of the southern states. In the Yucatan, by the way, we have four vulture species, one being the King Vulture, which is mostly white, with a yellow, red, orange and gray head!
* A group of vultures is called a "venue," while several vultures circling in the air constitute a "kettle."
* American Vultures have good senses of smell, but African vultures don't. The Turkey Vulture has the best sense of smell of all American vultures.
* American vultures are closely related to storks, while Old World vultures are closely related to hawks and eagles. This is a classic case of convergent evolution -- unrelated species evolving toward the "optimal form" for a given ecological niche, and therefore looking more and more alike as evolution progresses.
* Vulture poop is actually a sanitizer! It contains so much uric acid that it kills bacteria.
* Vultures pee on their own legs, which helps them cool off, as well as sanitize their legs after their last meal.
* American vultures find food both with their eyesight and sense of smell.
* Vultures prefer to eat fairly fresh flesh. They will pass up putrid flesh if an alternative is available. They also prefer the flesh of herbivorous animals, not carnivorous.
* The oldest known Turkey Vulture is 33 years old and lives in the San Francisco Zoo.
* The stinky odor that attracts Turkey Vultures is called mercaptan. It's a gas produced during the earlier stages of decay.
* Male and female turkey vultures are identical in appearance.

[sunflower]

You didn't skim to the bottom of the second one...

That's not using it as a source, it's telling you to go there for more information.

My bad...

While looking for the above information I ran into some other interesting facts about vultures. For example:

* Discounting the nearly extinct California Condor, in North America we have two vulture species, the Turkey Vulture found nearly throughout the US, and the Black Vulture of the southern states. In the Yucatan, by the way, we have four vulture species, one being the King Vulture, which is mostly white, with a yellow, red, orange and gray head!
* A group of vultures is called a "venue," while several vultures circling in the air constitute a "kettle."
* American Vultures have good senses of smell, but African vultures don't. The Turkey Vulture has the best sense of smell of all American vultures.
* American vultures are closely related to storks, while Old World vultures are closely related to hawks and eagles. This is a classic case of convergent evolution -- unrelated species evolving toward the "optimal form" for a given ecological niche, and therefore looking more and more alike as evolution progresses.
* Vulture poop is actually a sanitizer! It contains so much uric acid that it kills bacteria.
* Vultures pee on their own legs, which helps them cool off, as well as sanitize their legs after their last meal.
* American vultures find food both with their eyesight and sense of smell.
* Vultures prefer to eat fairly fresh flesh. They will pass up putrid flesh if an alternative is available. They also prefer the flesh of herbivorous animals, not carnivorous.
* The oldest known Turkey Vulture is 33 years old and lives in the San Francisco Zoo.
* The stinky odor that attracts Turkey Vultures is called mercaptan. It's a gas produced during the earlier stages of decay.
* Male and female turkey vultures are identical in appearance.

I'm not sure what your point is?

[Bob Juch]

I'm done, I mean I think I've found plenty of sources.

I think while it is not common, both kettle and venue are used out there by bird lovers and people in bird related industries, to relate to vultures. But like I said earlier, she should do what she feels is best for herself.

And just because I found this stuff doesn't make it suck less. Sorry, Rexalite, that you got one of WWTBAM's crappy obscure questions. I get it.

But the question is whether "kettle" and "venue" refer only to a group of vultures and can't be applied to any other the three other choices. We've already found that "kettle" is not unique to vultures.

[sunflower]

I'm done, I mean I think I've found plenty of sources.

I think while it is not common, both kettle and venue are used out there by bird lovers and people in bird related industries, to relate to vultures. But like I said earlier, she should do what she feels is best for herself.

And just because I found this stuff doesn't make it suck less. Sorry, Rexalite, that you got one of WWTBAM's crappy obscure questions. I get it.

But the question is whether "kettle" and "venue" refer only to a group of vultures and can't be applied to any other the three other choices. We've already found that "kettle" is not unique to vultures.

Somewhere other than wikipedia, which I have already been told is not reliable? The internet snobbery (not my term!) has to work both ways!!

Edited to add: What you say was the question, actually wasn't the question, anyway...it was initially whether these words were used as collective nouns for vultures...which they appear to be.

Of course I see things differently. I have gone back 600 years and found 20 different published collective nouns for vultures but have not found *any* published reference to kettle or venue. It does appear on the internet but only on user-contributed sites like WikiAnswers. People invent collective nouns as a word game. This could have been made up by anybody. So is it fair game to ask for a definition of a word that has no common usage; no consesus as to meaning and no published history or etymological foundation? Is it enough that someone somewhere has once called a group of vultures a venue? I don't think so. YMMV. It is all academic at this juncture but I do think it sucks that I went out on this question because I knew too much! If I hadn't studied collective nouns in college and learned then that they were referred to as a "wake" I probably would have guessed vultures on the faulty line of reasoning that lead others here to the "right" answer. Booklearnin shouldn't be penalized!

[Estonut]

I'm not sure what your point is?

You said that Naturalist Newsletter article was not using the Turkey Vulture Societhy as a source, but telling you to go there for more information.

The writer of the article said he went looking for information and then listed some fun facts, all but 2 of which were verbatim from the TVS page.

[sunflower]

I'm not sure what your point is?

You said that Naturalist Newsletter article was not using the Turkey Vulture Societhy as a source, but telling you to go there for more information.

The writer of the article said he went looking for information and then listed some fun facts, all but 2 of which were verbatim from the TVS page.

Okay. I give up. None of the multitude of sources I provided have any credibility.

[Estonut]

I'm not sure what your point is?

You said that Naturalist Newsletter article was not using the Turkey Vulture Societhy as a source, but telling you to go there for more information.

The writer of the article said he went looking for information and then listed some fun facts, all but 2 of which were verbatim from the TVS page.

Okay. I give up. None of the multitude of sources I provided have any credibility.

That wasn't my point at all. The immediate point was that the Naturalist Newsletter most definitely used TVS as a source. The more general point was that all of the articles may have used it as well. If you're not an idiot and are going to publish musings about turkey vultures on the web, where better to get information than a place called the "Turkey Vulture Society?" TVS may well be a valid authority, but the cites you provided cannot be validated as independent. Many of them were already determined to be dependent, as they cited TVS as a source, or used the list verbatim, so they clearly must have used them.

back atcha...

[rexalite]

I found lots of published references to kettle in relation to other species of birds. I think VaAdams posted her copy of the book A Kettle of Hawkshere for eg. There are lots of references to kettle of pigeons as well. There is a lot of mentions of turkey vultures with "kettle" because there is a particular group of turkey vultures that are famous for "kettling" off the coast of British Columbia. But any mention of "kettle" as a collective term exclusively for vultures is definitely in error and any source that references that hasn't done their research.

Re. the "Turkey Vulture Society" -If you look at the website it is three cattle ranchers who enjoyed talking about turkey vultures who decided to form a society to share their turkey vulture stories. Bless their hearts but I don't think they could be considered as a credible source for anything. BUt they have a fancy looking homestead website- and who knows? they might have been the ones who propagated the "venue" and "kettle" usage in the first place.

[sunflower]

You said that Naturalist Newsletter article was not using the Turkey Vulture Societhy as a source, but telling you to go there for more information.

The writer of the article said he went looking for information and then listed some fun facts, all but 2 of which were verbatim from the TVS page.

Okay. I give up. None of the multitude of sources I provided have any credibility.

That wasn't my point at all. The immediate point was that the Naturalist Newsletter most definitely used TVS as a source. The more general point was that all of the articles may have used it as well. If you're not an idiot and are going to publish musings about turkey vultures on the web, where better to get information than a place called the "Turkey Vulture Society?" TVS may well be a valid authority, but the cites you provided cannot be validated as independent. Many of them were already determined to be dependent, as they cited TVS as a source, or used the list verbatim, so they clearly must have used them.

back atcha...

The one from the British zoo/safari park didn't appear to be dependent on anything. And a couple others did not provide sources so you really don't know which came first, or who got what from where.

[sunflower]

I found lots of published references to kettle in relation to other species of birds. I think VaAdams posted her copy of the book A Kettle of Hawkshere for eg. There are lots of references to kettle of pigeons as well. There is a lot of mentions of turkey vultures with "kettle" because there is a particular group of turkey vultures that are famous for "kettling" off the coast of British Columbia. But any mention of "kettle" as a collective term exclusively for vultures is definitely in error and any source that references that hasn't done their research.

Just remember, the question is not whether "kettle" is a collective term used exclusively for vultures.

The question is which bird, of the four choices given (vulture, pigeon, blue jay and owl) do the terms "kettle" and "venue" refer to in the way stated in the question.

So hawks have nothing to do with it. IMHO, you would have to find more than one credible source using both kettle and venue to relate to either pigeons, blue jays or owls in order to be successful, because I believe there is clear evidence that those terms both relate to vultures. If both terms also relate to another bird, such as hawks (and I'm not saying that they do, but just for argument's sake), that is irrelevant because vulture would still be the most correct answer from the choices given.

[Estonut]

The one from the British zoo/safari park didn't appear to be dependent on anything. And a couple others did not provide sources so you really don't know which came first, or who got what from where.

I never disagreed with any of what you just said. I only said that since they did not provide sources, it was possible they were from the same one.

[Bob Juch]

[christie1111]

Dear Rexalite,

You should protest the Q because if you do not, then it will nag you in the back of your brain for a while.

Do the best research you can and present it to TPTB.

Christie1111

[ghostjmf]

Rexalite says:

Re. the "Turkey Vulture Society" -If you look at the website it is three cattle ranchers who enjoyed talking about turkey vultures who decided to form a society to share their turkey vulture stories. Bless their hearts but I don't think they could be considered as a credible source for anything. BUt they have a fancy looking homestead website- and who knows? they might have been the ones who propagated the "venue" and "kettle" usage in the first place.

If anyone can find some other "bunch of the same birds", for want of a better collective term, that is also refered to as a "venue", that would be good ammunition for your plea. So far no-one's found that, it appears. But if the 1st people in the world who refer to "bunch of vultures" as "venue" are the 3 ranchers, & everyone else who uses their term got it from them, & none of the people using the term are scientists who study vultures, I'd say you still have a case to question the question with TPTB.

You could also point out that that wretched Lipton person uses another term for "bunch of vultures", but he's no scientist, nor is he an historian of terms; nor is he the poet he apparently thinks he is, not to me! I normally wouldn't want to see people citing him, but for this, any ammunition is fair.

[Bob78164]

What does the Oxford English Dictionary say? The honest-to-goodness hard copy read-it-with-a-magnifying-glass version. --Bob

[ten96lt]

What does the Oxford English Dictionary say? The honest-to-goodness hard copy read-it-with-a-magnifying-glass version. --Bob

People still own hard copies of a dictionary??

Finally somebody is using the $100,000 Pyramid rules. We're going to check the dictionary and come back after these messages. (Dick Clark)

[Jeemie]

Rexalite says:

Re. the "Turkey Vulture Society" -If you look at the website it is three cattle ranchers who enjoyed talking about turkey vultures who decided to form a society to share their turkey vulture stories. Bless their hearts but I don't think they could be considered as a credible source for anything. BUt they have a fancy looking homestead website- and who knows? they might have been the ones who propagated the "venue" and "kettle" usage in the first place.

If anyone can find some other "bunch of the same birds", for want of a better collective term, that is also refered to as a "venue", that would be good ammunition for your plea. So far no-one's found that, it appears. But if the 1st people in the world who refer to "bunch of vultures" as "venue" are the 3 ranchers, & everyone else who uses their term got it from them, & none of the people using the term are scientists who study vultures, I'd say you still have a case to question the question with TPTB.

You could also point out that that wretched Lipton person uses another term for "bunch of vultures", but he's no scientist, nor is he an historian of terms; nor is he the poet he apparently thinks he is, not to me! I normally wouldn't want to see people citing him, but for this, any ammunition is fair.

Except we've gone far beyond the original Turkey Vulture Society site, and found other sites that state the same thing- some of them independently.

I think the work sunflower has done shows sufficient evidence exists that vultures are called a "venue" on the ground and a "kettle" while circling in the air.

It doesn't matter whether it is a "popular" usage...unless you can prove that any of the other birds are called by those two names, I don't see that you have a case.

At worst, you can say the question was unfairly valued- but we've seen that before.

[Bob Juch]

Rexalite says:

Re. the "Turkey Vulture Society" -If you look at the website it is three cattle ranchers who enjoyed talking about turkey vultures who decided to form a society to share their turkey vulture stories. Bless their hearts but I don't think they could be considered as a credible source for anything. BUt they have a fancy looking homestead website- and who knows? they might have been the ones who propagated the "venue" and "kettle" usage in the first place.

If anyone can find some other "bunch of the same birds", for want of a better collective term, that is also refered to as a "venue", that would be good ammunition for your plea. So far no-one's found that, it appears. But if the 1st people in the world who refer to "bunch of vultures" as "venue" are the 3 ranchers, & everyone else who uses their term got it from them, & none of the people using the term are scientists who study vultures, I'd say you still have a case to question the question with TPTB.

You could also point out that that wretched Lipton person uses another term for "bunch of vultures", but he's no scientist, nor is he an historian of terms; nor is he the poet he apparently thinks he is, not to me! I normally wouldn't want to see people citing him, but for this, any ammunition is fair.

Except we've gone far beyond the original Turkey Vulture Society site, and found other sites that state the same thing- some of them independently.

I think the work sunflower has done shows sufficient evidence exists that vultures are called a "venue" on the ground and a "kettle" while circling in the air.

It doesn't matter whether it is a "popular" usage...unless you can prove that any of the other birds are called by those two names, I don't see that you have a case.

At worst, you can say the question was unfairly valued- but we've seen that before.

I can call them a gonfaloon but it doesn't make it so.

[Jeemie]

I can call them a gonfaloon but it doesn't make it so.

If only you did, that would be one thing.

But research has shown these go beyond these cattle rancher dudes and are likely somewhat common names bird-watchers use.

Again- I'm playing Devil's Advocate and offering my opinion. If she thinks she's got a case, she should go for it.

[sunflower]

Rexalite says:

Re. the "Turkey Vulture Society" -If you look at the website it is three cattle ranchers who enjoyed talking about turkey vultures who decided to form a society to share their turkey vulture stories. Bless their hearts but I don't think they could be considered as a credible source for anything. BUt they have a fancy looking homestead website- and who knows? they might have been the ones who propagated the "venue" and "kettle" usage in the first place.

If anyone can find some other "bunch of the same birds", for want of a better collective term, that is also refered to as a "venue", that would be good ammunition for your plea. So far no-one's found that, it appears. But if the 1st people in the world who refer to "bunch of vultures" as "venue" are the 3 ranchers, & everyone else who uses their term got it from them, & none of the people using the term are scientists who study vultures, I'd say you still have a case to question the question with TPTB.

You could also point out that that wretched Lipton person uses another term for "bunch of vultures", but he's no scientist, nor is he an historian of terms; nor is he the poet he apparently thinks he is, not to me! I normally wouldn't want to see people citing him, but for this, any ammunition is fair.

Except we've gone far beyond the original Turkey Vulture Society site, and found other sites that state the same thing- some of them independently.

I think the work sunflower has done shows sufficient evidence exists that vultures are called a "venue" on the ground and a "kettle" while circling in the air.

It doesn't matter whether it is a "popular" usage...unless you can prove that any of the other birds are called by those two names, I don't see that you have a case.

At worst, you can say the question was unfairly valued- but we've seen that before.

Thank you, and I think your point is dead on, when you say unless you can prove any of the other birds are called by those names, you don't have a case.

BUT if she thinks she has a chance, she should fight it. She has to live with the final decision. And I think we should stop talking about it now because clearly there are some who are NEVER going to think there is enough evidence to prove these terms are acceptable.

[littlebeast13]

Anyone want to start up the Colorado River debate again?

lb13