RIP Stephane Charbonnier, Jean Cabut, Bernard Verlhac, and

[flockofseagulls104]

Islam is the Most Violent Religion in the World, But Let’s Keep Calling it ‘Peaceful’ Anyway

Rather, our Savior told us to turn the other cheek, and that’s what Christians have consistently done. They were pursued, captured, beaten, killed, and made into lion’s food for 300 years before they finally emerged as a dominant religion. If Christianity is inherently violent, it would have been born in violence and spread through violence, but it wasn’t. Unlike Islam.

You have heard of the Crusades? The Inquisition? The conquest of the New World?

What was the English Revolution other than a holy war?

Believing that Islam is uniquely violent among world religions simply betrays utter ignorance of history.

Flock, you may well understand the difference between Islam and radical Islam. I'm pretty sure that BiT doesn't. --Bob

Bob, look around and limit your conversation to the 21st century, please, and dispense with your institutional talking points. And it would be nice if you didn't call people ignorant before you look in the mirror. It's not polite.

[Bob78164]

Islam is the Most Violent Religion in the World, But Let’s Keep Calling it ‘Peaceful’ Anyway

Rather, our Savior told us to turn the other cheek, and that’s what Christians have consistently done. They were pursued, captured, beaten, killed, and made into lion’s food for 300 years before they finally emerged as a dominant religion. If Christianity is inherently violent, it would have been born in violence and spread through violence, but it wasn’t. Unlike Islam.

You have heard of the Crusades? The Inquisition? The conquest of the New World?

What was the English Revolution other than a holy war?

Believing that Islam is uniquely violent among world religions simply betrays utter ignorance of history.

Flock, you may well understand the difference between Islam and radical Islam. I'm pretty sure that BiT doesn't. --Bob

Bob, look around and limit your conversation to the 21st century, please, and dispense with your institutional talking points. And it would be nice if you didn't call people ignorant before you look in the mirror. It's not polite.

Believe it or not, Flock, I reach these conclusions myownself, without any need to have the media feed them to me. It's the result of something called an education. If the media is saying the same things I'm saying, that's probably because we're working from the same set of facts.

I will not ignore history, particularly when BiT is attempting to reinvent history to ignore the tremendous history of violence that organized Christianity has been responsible for. By remembering the past, I have some hope that we are not condemned to repeat it.

But if you really insist on limiting the discussion to the 21st Century, it was George W. Bush who referred to our military actions in the Middle East as a "Crusade." --Bob

[BackInTex]

By remembering the past, I have some hope that we are not condemned to repeat it.

That's brilliant! Is that something you came up with all by yourself, with the help of your education?

The only thing that will be repeated is what happened today. But it will be repeated here. And you don't give a damn, as long as someone other than a Christian doesn't get their feelings hurt.

[Beebs52]

What I don't get is why some folks don't take these groups, Isis, al qaeda, etc etc etc at their word. They want western infidels dead. They are well financed, they take advantage of the western experience, turn it against the western, aka European/Judeo Christian existence, and try to destroy it. They don't like us and their methodology continues a centuries' old mission. Terrorism is their perfect strategy. It is ageold and they are evil. I don't believe in moral relativism.

[jarnon]

You don't need ancient history to find atrocities committed in (and profaning) God's name. The "troubles" in Ireland and the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo ended in the late 20th century. There was even a war in Sri Lanka between Hindus and Buddhists. (Buddhists!) We Jews have our fanatics too.

But it's hard to deny that Islam is the most violent of them all. And it won't stop until moderate Muslim leaders take the lead against extremism. (Can't Abu Mazen see that coddling Hamas while denouncing Israel will only lead to Bibi's reelection and his own political failure?)

Back to the original topic: Vive le quatrième pouvoir! Vive la France!

[flockofseagulls104]

Bob, look around and limit your conversation to the 21st century, please, and dispense with your institutional talking points. And it would be nice if you didn't call people ignorant before you look in the mirror. It's not polite.[/quote]Believe it or not, Flock, I reach these conclusions myownself, without any need to have the media feed them to me. It's the result of something called an education. If the media is saying the same things I'm saying, that's probably because we're working from the same set of facts.

I will not ignore history, particularly when BiT is attempting to reinvent history to ignore the tremendous history of violence that organized Christianity has been responsible for. By remembering the past, I have some hope that we are not condemned to repeat it.

But if you really insist on limiting the discussion to the 21st Century, it was George W. Bush who referred to our military actions in the Middle East as a "Crusade." --Bob

I believe you are confusing education with indoctrination Bob. Your bringing up Bush in such a pointless non-sequitor-ish way shows that.

But anything you say or do is irrelevant and not to be taken into account because your great-great grandfather owned slaves. We can't ignore that. It is totally relevant to you, here today.

[flockofseagulls104]

You are a student of history, Bob? Here's another historical viewpoint. You can probably apply it to all the points you made against Christianity as well. The peaceful majority is irrelevant unless they do something.

http://m.cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/barbara ... -coalition

But my question is how can we fight an ideological war with weapons? How can we ever end this war? The jihadist ideology that you talk about - it's an ideology. How can we ever end this thing if we don't address it ideologically?" Ahmed asked. She was wearing a hijab, the head covering of traditional Muslims.

"What I find so amazing, is that since the beginning of this panel - we are here about the Benghazi attack on our people - not one person mentioned Muslims, or [said] we are here against Islam. We are here because four Americans died and what our government is doing," said Brigitte Gabriel, founder of Act! for America, an anti-terror grassroots organization, in a very strongly-worded response to the student.

"We are not here to bash Muslims. You were the one who brought up the issue about 'most Muslims' - not us. But since you brought it up, allow me to elaborate with my answer.

"There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world today. Of course not all of them are radicals. The majority of them are peaceful people. The radicals are estimated to be between 15-25% according to all intelligence services around the world.

"That leaves 75% of [Muslims being] peaceful people. But when you look at 15-25% of the world's Muslim population, you're looking at 180 million to 300 million people dedicated to the destruction of Western civilization. That is as big as the United States," said Gabriel.

"So why should we worry about the radical 15-25%? Because it is the radicals that kill. Because it is the radicals that behead and massacre," Gabriel said.

"When you look throughout history, at the lessons of history, most Germans were peaceful. Yet the Nazis drove the agenda. And as a result, 60 million people died, almost 40 million in concentration camps. 6 million were Jews. The peaceful majority were irrelevant," Gabriel said.

"When you look at Russia, most Russians were peaceful as well. But the Russians were able to kill 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

"When you look at China for example, most Chinese were peaceful as well. Yet the Chinese were able to kill 70 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

"When you look at Japan prior to World War II, most Japanese were peaceful people too. Yet, Japan was able to butcher its way across Southeast Asia, killing 12 million people, mostly killed by bayonets and shovels. The peaceful majority were irrelevant," Gabriel said.

"On September 11th in the United States we had 2.3 million Arab Muslims living in the United States. It took 19 hijackers - 19 radicals - to bring America to its knees, destroy the World Trade Center, attack the Pentagon and kill almost 3000 Americans that day," Gabriel said.

"So for all our power of reason, and for all us talking about moderate and peaceful Muslims, I'm glad you're here. But where are the others speaking out?" Gabriel asked. The people in attendance began to applaud.

"And since you are the only Muslim representative here, you took the limelight instead of speaking about why our government - I assume you're an American [Ahmed responded yes.] As an American citizen, you sat in this room, and instead of asking a question about the four Americans that died [in Benghazi] and what our government is doing to correct the problem, you stood there to make a point about peaceful, moderate Muslims," said Gabriel.

"I wish you had brought ten with you so we could talk about how to hold our government responsible," Gabriel continued.

"It is time we take political correctness and throw it in the garbage where it belongs," Gabriel said, to a standing ovation and cheers from the crowd, over 150 strong.

"As a peaceful American Muslim, I'd like to think I'm not that irrelevant," the student responded. "I'm deeply saddened about the lives that were lost in Libya and I hope we will find justice for their families."

"But I don't think this war can ever be won by just the military," Ahmed rejoined.

"I think everyone agrees that it can't be won by just the military," talk radio host Chris Plante responded. "Can you tell me the head of the Muslim peace movement?"

"I guess it's me right now," the student said sheepishly

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

RIP Ahmed Merabet

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... cated.html

Tributes were today being paid to heroic Muslim police officer Ahmed Merabet, who was executed by a terrorist gunman on the streets of Paris while he begged for his life.
Shocking footage of the attack on the Charlie Hebdo office shows Mr Merabet on the ground and begging for mercy as he is killed casually by a gunshot to the head. Witnesses say he asked 'do you want to kill me?' before the gunman replied 'OK, chief'.
It is understood that Mr Merabet was a married Parisian cycle cop assigned to the 11th arrondissement – the Paris neighbourhood where Charlie Hebdo’s office is located and known for its dining and fine wines.
As the French magazine vowed to publish next week in defiance of the massacre, one French mourner wrote: 'Ahmed Merabet died protecting the innocent from hate. I salute him.'

R

[Bob Juch]

Someone just threw several grenades into the courtyard of a Le Mans mosque.

[tlynn78]

What I don't get is why some folks don't take these groups, Isis, al qaeda, etc etc etc at their word. They want western infidels dead. They are well financed, they take advantage of the western experience, turn it against the western, aka European/Judeo Christian existence, and try to destroy it. They don't like us and their methodology continues a centuries' old mission. Terrorism is their perfect strategy. It is ageold and they are evil. I don't believe in moral relativism.

Beebs, Beebs, Beebs. It's all our fault, duh. Because, Inquisition! Because, Skinheads! Never mind little details like: "The Islamic State group's radio praised them as "heroes" and Somalia's Shebab militants, Al-Qaeda's main affiliate in Africa, praised the massacre as a "heroic" act" Never mind the thousands dancing in the streets after 9/11. Some people are just too stupidly indoctrinated to ever 'get' it.

[Bob78164]

What I don't get is why some folks don't take these groups, Isis, al qaeda, etc etc etc at their word. They want western infidels dead. They are well financed, they take advantage of the western experience, turn it against the western, aka European/Judeo Christian existence, and try to destroy it. They don't like us and their methodology continues a centuries' old mission. Terrorism is their perfect strategy. It is ageold and they are evil. I don't believe in moral relativism.

Beebs, Beebs, Beebs. It's all our fault, duh. Because, Inquisition! Because, Skinheads! Never mind little details like: "The Islamic State group's radio praised them as "heroes" and Somalia's Shebab militants, Al-Qaeda's main affiliate in Africa, praised the massacre as a "heroic" act" Never mind the thousands dancing in the streets after 9/11. Some people are just too stupidly indoctrinated to ever 'get' it.

Nobody said that. Or anything close to it. What I do object to is the object to tar an entire faith with the actions of some militants, while ignoring the history of what is, in this country, the dominant religion. --Bob

[Bob78164]

And by the way, Ahmed Merabet, one of the police officers killed in the attack, was Moslem. --Bob

[BackInTex]

It's all our fault, duh. Because, Inquisition!

Nobody said that. Or anything close to it.

You have heard of the Crusades? The Inquisition? The conquest of the New World?

That's pretty close. At least in the way you tend to make comparisons.

What I do object to is the object to tar an entire faith with the actions of some militants,

Religion of peace my ass.

That's 'tarring' an entire religion? Nope. It's not singing their praises, but it's not tarring.

Maybe you were referring to the article I linked to calling Islam the "Most Violent Religion in the World". But you didn't read the entire article. You simply posted:

Believing that Islam is uniquely violent among world religions simply betrays utter ignorance of history.

What is utter ignorance is saying someone thinks Islam is uniquely violent when the article clearly titles it most violent implying others also are violent (i.e. Islam is not unique). The article goes on to explain how Islam was born of violence and has largely expanded through violence while Christianity's early history is filled with violence but against Christians.

And you mentioning the Crusades. The Crusades were not an act of aggression to spread or force Christianity on others. They were simply to restore access to specific places for the religion, or simply an attempt at a land grab. But that was 700 years ago and not relevant about what Christianity is and what Islam is today. You can continue to stick your fingers in your ears and repeat "Na na na na Crusades na na na Inquistion na na na na" all you want. The fact is, today, what affects me, what affects you, is that for the most part, there is little or no violence worldwide attributed to Christianity and there is a lot of violence worldwide attributed to Islam.

[BackInTex]

And by the way, Ahmed Merabet, one of the police officers killed in the attack, was Moslem. --Bob

And?

Did you see the opening scene of The Dark Knight?

[mrkelley23]

One historical fact that I try to keep in mind in dealing with this Islam-is-violent by nature discussion is that Mohammad was born approximately 500 years after Jesus. That means Islam is that much younger than Christianity. And Christianity did not have its finest moments when it was the same age as Islam is now.Also, to BiT's point, you can make an argument that the Crusades were more about territory than about religion, but it is also true that most, if not all of that territory was controlled by Muslims who had basically preserved civilization during the Dark Ages. And the language and speechmaking during the Crusades was definitely more about religion than territory. Can you say Deus Vult?

All that being said, it is my opinion that the biblical Jesus took a religion that was basically violent and tribal and tried to make it more peaceful, and Mohammad and his followers took a religion that was basically peaceful and injected elements of struggle and conflict to it. Historically, both approaches are understandable, but that doesn't change the facts, either.

[jarnon]

The victims so far:

Killed by the Kouachi brothers (as reported by the BBC):

• Charlie Hebdo editor and cartoonist Stephane "Charb" Charbonnier, 47, who had been living under police protection since receiving death threats
• Cartoonists Jean "Cabu" Cabut, 76, Bernard "Tignous" Verlhac, 57, Georges Wolinski, 80, and Philippe Honore, 73
• Elsa Cayat, psychoanalyst and columnist, the only woman killed
• Economist and regular magazine columnist Bernard Maris, 68, known to readers as Uncle Bernard
• Michel Renaud, who was visiting from the city of Clermont-Ferrand
• Mustapha Ourrad, proof-reader
• Frederic Boisseau, 42, caretaker, who was in the reception area at the time of the attack
• Police officers Franck Brinsolaro, who acted as Charb's bodyguard, and Ahmed Merabet, 42, who was shot dead while on the ground

Killed by Coulibaly:

• Policewoman Clarissa Jean-Philippe, 27
• Three shoppers in a kosher grocery, HyperCacher, in Paris: Yoav Hattab, 21, Phillippe Braham, 40, and François-Michel Saada, 64.
• A HyperCacher employee, Yohan Cohen, 22, who reportedly was shot in the head after struggling with the attacker.

[jarnon]

Four civilians in a kosher grocery in Paris

Whether in France or India or Missouri, these SOBs all try to go after Jews. French and Belgian Jews have been on edge for months after several attacks. Aliyah from France is at an all-time high. Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

I am looking for a better link to this story

Lassana, employed by the Hyper Casher where a hostage situation occurred Friday, had had the reflex to hide his customers from the armed terrorist. Hiding them had permitted the escape from Amedy Coulibaly.

He introduces himself as being a "Mali Muslim," as was Amedy Coulibaly. Confronted by the heavily-armed terrorist in the kosher supermarket where he worked, Lassana acted only on reflex: Helping the hostages to find a safe place. The customers were stuffed down, via a trap door, in the basement. "When they got down on the fly," explained the employee of Hyper Casher to [a french TV station], "I opened the door to the freezer. There were man people who had come back [into the freezer] with me. I turned out the light, I turned off the freezer."

Among the frightened customers, a man found himself there with "a two-year old baby," said Lassana. He was actually a baby of three and a half years, who accompanied his father. "When I had turned off the freezer, I had put them inside, I closed the door, I said: "Remain calm, here, I will get you out." "When they were out, they congratulated me, they thanked me," recounted humbly this young man.

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

http://randazza.wordpress.com

This site has a mini bio of the victims of the magazine massacre

[Bob Juch]

[flockofseagulls104]

They are indeed terrorists, but these people, however, for some reason, don't pretend to be Christians, Jews, Buddhists or Atheists. They do their unfathomable evil in the name of Islam. Why is that so difficult to acknowledge?

[jarnon]

Pres. Obama gave a thoughtful speech yesterday on the battle against terrorism:
Remarks by the President in Closing of the Summit on Countering Violent Extremism

Some of his remarks echo the article that Flock quoted:

But if we are going to effectively isolate terrorists, if we're going to address the challenge of their efforts to recruit our young people, if we're going to lift up the voices of tolerance and pluralism within the Muslim community, then we've got to acknowledge that their job is made harder by a broader narrative that does exist in many Muslim communities around the world that suggests the West is at odds with Islam in some fashion.

The reality -- which, again, many Muslim leaders have spoken to -- is that there’s a strain of thought that doesn’t embrace ISIL’s tactics, doesn’t embrace violence, but does buy into the notion that the Muslim world has suffered historical grievances -- sometimes that's accurate -- does buy into the belief that so many of the ills in the Middle East flow from a history of colonialism or conspiracy; does buy into the idea that Islam is incompatible with modernity or tolerance, or that it's been polluted by Western values.

So those beliefs exist. In some communities around the world they are widespread. And so it makes individuals -- especially young people who already may be disaffected or alienated -- more ripe for radicalization. And so we've got to be able to talk honestly about those issues. We've got to be much more clear about how we're rejecting certain ideas.

So just as leaders like myself reject the notion that terrorists like ISIL genuinely represent Islam, Muslim leaders need to do more to discredit the notion that our nations are determined to suppress Islam, that there’s an inherent clash in civilizations. Everybody has to speak up very clearly that no matter what the grievance, violence against innocents doesn't defend Islam or Muslims, it damages Islam and Muslims. (Applause.)

But this guy will never be convinced:
Saudi Preacher says US never went to moon, offers 'rational' proofs Earth doesn't revolve

[silverscreenselect]

Pres. Obama gave a thoughtful speech yesterday on the battle against terrorism:
Remarks by the President in Closing of the Summit on Countering Violent Extremism

While I don't have much faith in Obama's ability to deal with the situation, you might note that none of the Republicans have come up with any sort of plan either, other than labeling these people as "Islamic terrorists," an act which apparently makes right wingers feel better about themselves and the world in general but doesn't actually do anything to solve any problems.

And let's not forget that the young people who are joining up with this nutcases today are in many cases the same ones that were radicalized as even younger people by our invasion of Iraq ten years ago, while these very same right wing "experts" were blowviating about how we would be welcomed with open arms by the citizenry of Iraq. If we do something stupid today, we're just laying the groundwork for another serious problem for whoever's in the White House in 2025 to deal with.

[flockofseagulls104]

other than labeling these people as "Islamic terrorists," an act which apparently makes right wingers feel better about themselves

You know, I could argue with you, but it will do no good. You don't want to debate, you just want to denigrate and insult anyone who disagrees with you, just like your President. (He is my President, too, but he has no intention of representing me).

So I'll just say I am just S&T of your ignorant rantings about the motives of conservatives. But what do I know? To you and your ilk, no matter what I say, I breathe through my mouth, so I am to be ridiculed.

[Bob Juch]

other than labeling these people as "Islamic terrorists," an act which apparently makes right wingers feel better about themselves

You know, I could argue with you, but it will do no good. You don't want to debate, you just want to denigrate and insult anyone who disagrees with you, just like your President. (He is my President, too, but he has no intention of representing me).

So I'll just say I am just S&T of your ignorant rantings about the motives of conservatives. But what do I know? To you and your ilk, no matter what I say, I breathe through my mouth, so I am to be ridiculed.

If you hate Obama you must really love your new Governor.

Saying ISIS represents all Muslims is like saying the Tea Party represents all Americans.