Democrat Debate

Message

Ritterskoop · #26 Post by **Ritterskoop** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:50 am

I am sure you're right about Clinton's tone. She has a way about that, sometimes. But I imagine it would be difficult having to spend most of your waking minutes having to justify your right to participate in a system that does not welcome you. Sometimes that anger will show through. I don't see it as any different from masculine anger that we admire and perceive as righteous.

Tocqueville3 · #27 Post by **Tocqueville3** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:55 am

Ritterskoop wrote:
Tocqueville3 wrote:
Hillary makes me ill. I haven't liked her since the very beginning when she and Bill went on 60 Minutes and she went on that rant about not being the little woman and not staying home to bake cookies and all that. She had the rudest, most condescending tone ever. I mean, what the hell is wrong with staying at home to bake cookies? I like being the little woman.

Absolutely nothing "wrong" with that choice. It's a noble one.

What is wrong is when society expects you to do it, and sends gobs of messages there is something wrong with you if you don't want to play that role, or want to play it along with some others.

Exactly. Or when another part of society tells you that you are lacking something if you "just stay at home". Or that you aren't fulfilling your potential if you "just stay at home". My mother, bless her heart, tells me all the time that I could have nicer things if I just worked and earned money. My kids don't want nicer stuff. They want their mommy. My kids don't give a crap about what kind of house they live in or what kind of car I drive. They care if I'm there.

Quite frankly, I am living my dream right now.

Ritterskoop · #28 Post by **Ritterskoop** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:06 pm

Tocqueville3 wrote:
Quite frankly, I am living my dream right now.

That's terrific! So it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. You are in an enviable place.

peacock2121 · #29 Post by **peacock2121** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:16 pm

I have a tendency to wonder about people (men and women) who seem to have to defend the choices they have made for their lives, rather than be solid in their choices.

I also have observed that sometimes (okay, often) those who need to defend their choices, really do think that a choice other than their's is wrong.

Hillary was defending her choice during that interview. She was being right about it. That is off-putting.

Ritterskoop · #30 Post by **Ritterskoop** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:33 pm

peacock2121 wrote:
Hillary was defending her choice during that interview. She was being right about it. That is off-putting.

Clinton can be way off-putting, for sure. I know what you mean about having it be who you are and not having it be about explaining it. There is a strength in that place.

But when people ask, "Why are you being so different from what we expect?" I am not sure what is the right answer. Unshrill would be a good start, for sure.

I have been reading about the ways we think about boys and girls, and how we grow up, is why this topic is of particular interest to me right now.

It's fairly clear we reward verbal behaviors in little girls, and aggressive behaviors in little boys. And then we say it's genetic, when they turn out in those ways. I don't deny some of the wiring is different, but so much of the ways we think of masculine and feminine are just what we have picked as a group. Other groups have chosen other traits. There is no reason all of those traits need to be present in all of those people. There is no reason some folks can't be out-of-pattern. When they are, it could be interesting rather than squashable.

At least we have reached a place where some women can behave in some ways that have been thought of as masculine. Some of those women at least have choices. Men mostly don't have options about feminine behaviors.

earendel · #31 Post by **earendel** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:56 pm

Ritterskoop wrote: At least we have reached a place where some women can behave in some ways that have been thought of as masculine. Some of those women at least have choices. Men mostly don't have options about feminine behaviors.

Mostly, but I don't think we're quite there yet. Case in point: if Hillary cries, she's weepy and emotional. When she tries to be forthright and aggressive, she's "bitchy". Women are held to a much different standard in public discourse than men are, more's the pity.

trevor_macfee · #32 Post by **trevor_macfee** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:00 pm

Very interesting viewing at my house, these Democratic debates. Nothing spices up a marriage like an Obama husband watching the debates with a Hillary wife. The "discussions" during the debate - and after - have been scintillating. I've been fascinated with our different perceptions of the proceedings, especially of Obama and Edwards ganging up on Hillary in the New Hampshire debate and then Hillary and Edwards going after Obama last night.

Hopefully we can unite behind a single candidate sooner rather than later. I can't imagine viewing a split convention together - good thing we have two TVs.

Ritterskoop · #33 Post by **Ritterskoop** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:06 pm

Trevor, I apologize if this has already been asked and I missed it. Who is the critter in your avatar?

trevor_macfee · #34 Post by **trevor_macfee** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:13 pm

Ritterskoop wrote:Trevor, I apologize if this has already been asked and I missed it. Who is the critter in your avatar?

It is a pygmy marmoset, my daughter's favorite animal and the subject of my $32,000 WWTBAM question. With no lifelines, a question about that particular animal felt something like a miracle (you can see me about fall out of the hotseat when it pops up) - and emboldened me to guess at the next two questions before walking away.

Actually, since that fateful day the pygmy marmoset has been a favorite of mine as well!

Ritterskoop · #35 Post by **Ritterskoop** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:06 pm

trevor_macfee wrote:
Ritterskoop wrote:Trevor, I apologize if this has already been asked and I missed it. Who is the critter in your avatar?
It is a pygmy marmoset, my daughter's favorite animal and the subject of my $32,000 WWTBAM question.

It does not look happy to me.

mrkelley23 · #36 Post by **mrkelley23** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:03 pm

Ritterskoop wrote:
trevor_macfee wrote:
Ritterskoop wrote:Trevor, I apologize if this has already been asked and I missed it. Who is the critter in your avatar?
It is a pygmy marmoset, my daughter's favorite animal and the subject of my $32,000 WWTBAM question.
It does not look happy to me.

It just got off a 12 hour ride on top of a stationwagon.

tlynn78 · #37 Post by **tlynn78** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:04 pm

It just got off a 12 hour ride on top of a stationwagon.

lol

t.

peacock2121 · #38 Post by **peacock2121** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:47 am

peacock2121 wrote:I have a tendency to wonder about people (men and women) who seem to have to defend the choices they have made for their lives, rather than be solid in their choices.

I also have observed that sometimes (okay, often) those who need to defend their choices, really do think that a choice other than their's is wrong.

Hillary was defending her choice during that interview. She was being right about it. That is off-putting.

I thought a little bit more about this.

I came up with this thought:

It is far more enrolling and authentic when I hear someone state what/who they are than stating what/who they are not. Just as it is less devisive to state what one is for than what one is against.

I think Hillary made that mistake in that interview that pissed tocque (and many other women) off.

trevor_macfee · #39 Post by **trevor_macfee** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:12 am

Ritterskoop wrote:
trevor_macfee wrote:
Ritterskoop wrote:Trevor, I apologize if this has already been asked and I missed it. Who is the critter in your avatar?
It is a pygmy marmoset, my daughter's favorite animal and the subject of my $32,000 WWTBAM question.
It does not look happy to me.

Can't have an avatar that is perceived as unhappy! So I switched.

mrkelley23 · #40 Post by **mrkelley23** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:40 am

trevor_macfee wrote:
Ritterskoop wrote:
trevor_macfee wrote: It is a pygmy marmoset, my daughter's favorite animal and the subject of my $32,000 WWTBAM question.
It does not look happy to me.
Can't have an avatar that is perceived as unhappy! So I switched.

Now it just looks inscrutable.

As befits a proper pygmy marmoset, I think.

Ritterskoop · #41 Post by **Ritterskoop** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:56 pm

trevor_macfee wrote:
Ritterskoop wrote:
trevor_macfee wrote: It is a pygmy marmoset, my daughter's favorite animal and the subject of my $32,000 WWTBAM question.
It does not look happy to me.
Can't have an avatar that is perceived as unhappy! So I switched.

It is adorable!

I wasn't asking you to switch. But I'm glad you did.....eventually I'll have to switch, as Marley thinks my kitty pic has a bloodstain on it.

MarleysGh0st · #42 Post by **MarleysGh0st** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:58 pm

Ritterskoop wrote:I wasn't asking you to switch. But I'm glad you did.....eventually I'll have to switch, as Marley thinks my kitty pic has a bloodstain on it.

Can I help it if I've seen one too many crime show on TV?

Ritterskoop · #43 Post by **Ritterskoop** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:59 pm

peacock2121 wrote:
peacock2121 wrote:I have a tendency to wonder about people (men and women) who seem to have to defend the choices they have made for their lives, rather than be solid in their choices.

I also have observed that sometimes (okay, often) those who need to defend their choices, really do think that a choice other than their's is wrong.

Hillary was defending her choice during that interview. She was being right about it. That is off-putting.
I thought a little bit more about this.

I came up with this thought:

It is far more enrolling and authentic when I hear someone state what/who they are than stating what/who they are not. Just as it is less devisive to state what one is for than what one is against.

I think Hillary made that mistake in that interview that pissed tocque (and many other women) off.

I did not see the interview, so I am abandoning possible explanations for her behavior. That's what I do, is look for other angles. But it sounds pretty clear-cut she was annoying.

tlynn78 · #44 Post by **tlynn78** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:11 pm

I wasn't asking you to switch. But I'm glad you did.....eventually I'll have to switch, as Marley thinks my kitty pic has a bloodstain on it

LOLOL -

I must have missed that earlier - but I thought the same thing - wondered if kitty was auditioning for SawVIII or something...

t.

earendel · #45 Post by **earendel** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:11 pm

Ritterskoop wrote:I wasn't asking you to switch. But I'm glad you did.....eventually I'll have to switch, as Marley thinks my kitty pic has a bloodstain on it.

He's not the only one.

wbtravis007 · #46 Post by **wbtravis007** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:52 pm

MarleysGh0st wrote:
Ritterskoop wrote:I wasn't asking you to switch. But I'm glad you did.....eventually I'll have to switch, as Marley thinks my kitty pic has a bloodstain on it.
Can I help it if I've seen one too many crime show on TV?

ICM! I've always thought that, too, but just never said anything.