PT-WWTBAM Transcript 08/17/09 Lee-Ann Whitlock (Rexalite)

[Weyoun]

It's actually on the main page of the Turkey Vulture Society's webpage, I didn't see it at first, in the Quick Facts section...



Sorry if that isn't what you wanted to hear I know how it feels, believe me!!

Just because one person says it doesn't make it true. No one's found any additional refrences.

It's on a site for scientists dedicated to studying the friggin' birds!

I don't think "it's not common" is grounds for a protest.

Is a homestead.com domain really the most reliable source? Have we scoured angelfire and geocities?

[Jeemie]

Just because one person says it doesn't make it true. No one's found any additional refrences.

It's on a site for scientists dedicated to studying the friggin' birds!

I don't think "it's not common" is grounds for a protest.

Is a homestead.com domain really the most reliable source? Have we scoured angelfire and geocities?

Internet snobbery is now a grounds for protest?

[sunflower]

Here is an article from Florida Field Naturalist, which references kettles.

http://www.fosbirds.org/FFN/PDFs/FFNv11 ... Darrow.pdf

The Florida Field Naturalist, a quarterly publication of the Florida Ornithological Society, is a fully refereed technical journal of field biology and natural history. The Florida Field Naturalist welcomes submission of articles and notes containing the results of biological field studies, distributional records, and natural history observations of vertebrates, especially birds. Its geographic area includes Florida, adjacent states, the Bahamas, and nearby West Indies. Notes on behavior should consider previously published information, and interpret the biological, ecological, or evolutionary significance of the behavior reported. Field studies must conform to standard scientific criteria for study design, analysis, and interpretation. Hypotheses should be clearly stated and data should be subjected to statistical testing where appropriate.

http://www.fosbirds.org/FFN/FFN.aspx

[Jeemie]

Here is an article from Florida Field Naturalist, which references kettles.

http://www.fosbirds.org/FFN/PDFs/FFNv11 ... Darrow.pdf

The Florida Field Naturalist, a quarterly publication of the Florida Ornithological Society, is a fully refereed technical journal of field biology and natural history. The Florida Field Naturalist welcomes submission of articles and notes containing the results of biological field studies, distributional records, and natural history observations of vertebrates, especially birds. Its geographic area includes Florida, adjacent states, the Bahamas, and nearby West Indies. Notes on behavior should consider previously published information, and interpret the biological, ecological, or evolutionary significance of the behavior reported. Field studies must conform to standard scientific criteria for study design, analysis, and interpretation. Hypotheses should be clearly stated and data should be subjected to statistical testing where appropriate.

http://www.fosbirds.org/FFN/FFN.aspx

"Kettle" is a general term for birds rising in the air in this manner.

A kettle could actually be a group of birds of different species.

[sunflower]

From the Penn State website: http://live.psu.edu/image/18431

Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources: http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/wrcp/wildno ... lture.html

Florida Wildlife Hospital and Sactuary: http://www.floridawildlifehospital.org/ ... _1206.html

You just have to go to page 3 or 4 of the google searches, and pick reliable looking sources.

[MarleysGh0st]

It's actually on the main page of the Turkey Vulture Society's webpage, I didn't see it at first, in the Quick Facts section...



Sorry if that isn't what you wanted to hear I know how it feels, believe me!!

Just because one person says it doesn't make it true. No one's found any additional refrences.

It's on a site for scientists dedicated to studying the friggin' birds!

I don't think "it's not common" is grounds for a protest.

Scientists? Perhaps...

http://vulturesociety.homestead.com/Background.html

On July 27, 2005, the Turkey Vulture Society, Inc., celebrated its eleventh birthday.
How did it get started?

In April, 1994, in Tacoma, Washington, Karl Baker, a breeder of quarter horses in Fernley, Nevada, and Bill Kohlmoos, a mining company owner and ex cattle rancher, from Reno, Nevada, were sitting on a restaurant porch enjoying a cup of coffee...

And after talking about turkey vultures, they formed the Turkey Vulture Society, Inc. three months later. And they started a web site!

Bill and Karl are still on the Board of Directors, as is Beaujourn Shull (information to come). Bill Lynch (info to come) is the President and Jim Anderson is the VP. (Jim has a bio that talks about a number of accomplishments, but doesn't actually list any college degrees.)

Scientists?

All skepticism aside, I think Rexalite should send an e-mail to this organization, specifically asking about the orgins of the term "venue of vultures". Who gave it that name? When and why did they do it?

Surely, these experts know.

[Bob Juch]

It's actually on the main page of the Turkey Vulture Society's webpage, I didn't see it at first, in the Quick Facts section...



Sorry if that isn't what you wanted to hear I know how it feels, believe me!!

Just because one person says it doesn't make it true. No one's found any additional refrences.

It's on a site for scientists dedicated to studying the friggin' birds!

I don't think "it's not common" is grounds for a protest.

I found out when I protested at Disney's California Adventure Play-it! that their standard was to have three different web pages with the fact.

[Jeemie]

Just because one person says it doesn't make it true. No one's found any additional refrences.

It's on a site for scientists dedicated to studying the friggin' birds!

I don't think "it's not common" is grounds for a protest.

I found out when I protested at Disney's California Adventure Play-it! that their standard was to have three different web pages with the fact.

Well, if that's the case, maybe she should go for it.

I would think not.

It's not that I don't want her to protest...I would hope she could and get back on the show...I was simply playing Devil's Advocate.

[sunflower]

All skepticism aside, I think Rexalite should send an e-mail to this organization, specifically asking about the orgins of the term "venue of vultures". Who gave it that name? When and why did they do it?

Surely, these experts know.

I honestly don't think the origin matters, as long as experts in the field use and accept the terminology as common, which they appear to based on my Google searches. I'm not doing this to be a jerk, I'm just being realistic. There are lots of references out there, universities, journals, wildlife organizations, etc.

[frogman042]

I just hate any questions on collective nouns for animals. It seems so... arbitrary.

A collection of BAM fans who consistently and unjustly get the sad card are known as a <grumble>® of bored members
A collection of contestants who feel that they were unjustly felled during their run are known as a crushing of contestants

[sunflower]

Just because one person says it doesn't make it true. No one's found any additional refrences.

It's on a site for scientists dedicated to studying the friggin' birds!

I don't think "it's not common" is grounds for a protest.

I found out when I protested at Disney's California Adventure Play-it! that their standard was to have three different web pages with the fact.

I provided 5, and there are more. I think this is a no go. But that's just my opinion, she should go for it if she feels it's the right thing to do.

[Jeemie]

Just because one person says it doesn't make it true. No one's found any additional refrences.

It's on a site for scientists dedicated to studying the friggin' birds!

I don't think "it's not common" is grounds for a protest.

I found out when I protested at Disney's California Adventure Play-it! that their standard was to have three different web pages with the fact.

Looks like Sunflower has found more than three...

[Estonut]

Especially since I knew it right off.

BTW, once again, the question had a word that might have helped get to the answer if the expert who knew nothing had kept her mouth shut.

Although, yes, Rexalite didn't know the answer, but also didn't calm down enough to study the question and maybe use the clue to help her.

I've said several times during this run that BAM appears to have hired some Jeopardy! writers- they seem to be putting a lot of these clues in their questions a la jeopardy! lately. maybe they've always been doing this for Syndie?

If so, it's a new thing for future contestants to look out for. Take the time, study the question first before jumping to a LL, even if you don't know the answer right away. The clue itself may help.

And neither owls, bluejays, nor pigeons circle in the air.

Vulture is the correct answer.

While it is true that a "kettle" refers to any flock of wheeling, circling birds (the flock can even contain a mixture of species), when I Google venue birds, vultures come up in the VAST majority of hits. The term is quite specific for vultures.

I did not study collective nouns...well, not as seriously as you did. I know some of the more common ones, but a lot of what I know about birds' names, I know from some friends who are bird-watchers (although I haven't spoken with them in a while).

When your question came up, I did not "come to the right answer through faulty reasoning". I came to the right answer via the Ogi Ogas method.

When the answers came up, I didn't think what the other birds were called as a collective. The answer "vultures" leapt out at me as the right answer.

So while you talked to the expert, I kept saying "vulture" over and over, seeing if anything else would pop up. The only thing that did was "turkey vultures". I was wondering: "Did my friends tell me this, or did I see it somewhere else?"

So right after you were finished, I typed "turkey vulture" into Google. The first hit is for the Turkey Vulture Society, a non-profit scientific group dedicated to the preservation and study of turkey vultures.

I'm not as smart as you are, so I'm a little confused. Of course you knew the answer, but was it because:
1) It was just one of those things you knew?
2) The clue "circling" in the question gave it away?
3) You knew about the behavior of the other three choices and could, thus, eliminate them?
4) You used the "Ogi method" and forgot to mention that and "turkey vultures," specifically, until today?

[Bob Juch]

All skepticism aside, I think Rexalite should send an e-mail to this organization, specifically asking about the orgins of the term "venue of vultures". Who gave it that name? When and why did they do it?

Surely, these experts know.

I honestly don't think the origin matters, as long as experts in the field use and accept the terminology as common, which they appear to based on my Google searches. I'm not doing this to be a jerk, I'm just being realistic. There are lots of references out there, universities, journals, wildlife organizations, etc.

The point is that any group of birds gliding on thermals can be called a kettle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettle_(birds)

I can find no other use of "venue" to describe a group of birds that predates the show's broadcast.

[Bob78164]

I can find no other use of "venue" to describe a group of birds that predates the show's broadcast.

sunflower provided at least two. I'm not counting the Turkey Vulture Association, because its reliability is questionable, but they appear to have taken their Quick Facts directly from the December 2006 Florida site that sunflower linked. --Bob

[Jeemie]

I'm not as smart as you are, so I'm a little confused. Of course you knew the answer, but was it because:
1) It was just one of those things you knew?
2) The clue "circling" in the question gave it away?
3) You knew about the behavior of the other three choices and could, thus, eliminate them?
4) You used the "Ogi method" and forgot to mention that and "turkey vultures," specifically, until today?

I believe I said I never satisfactorily figured out why I knew the answer.

I also never talked about how I knew the answer before today.

[Estonut]

Looks like Sunflower has found more than three...

I believe the issue is more about the term "venue" than "kettling," as many birds kettle.

I quickly perused the links provided and only found one, from the "Florida Wildlife Hospital and Sanctuary," that mentions the term "venue." I would not consider that an independent source, however, because their "vulture facts" are parroted (sorry) word-for-word from the Turkey Vulture Society's "vulture facts" page.

[Jeemie]

Looks like Sunflower has found more than three...

I believe the issue is more about the term "venue" than "kettling," as many birds kettle.

I quickly perused the links provided and only found one, from the "Florida Wildlife Hospital and Sanctuary," that mentions the term "venue." I would not consider that an independent source, however, because their "vulture facts" are parroted (sorry) word-for-word from the Turkey Vulture Society's "vulture facts" page.

Likely, it's the other way around.

[Bob78164]

Looks like Sunflower has found more than three...

I believe the issue is more about the term "venue" than "kettling," as many birds kettle.

I quickly perused the links provided and only found one, from the "Florida Wildlife Hospital and Sanctuary," that mentions the term "venue." I would not consider that an independent source, however, because their "vulture facts" are parroted (sorry) word-for-word from the Turkey Vulture Society's "vulture facts" page.

The Pennsylvania DCNR site also uses it, toward the bottom of the page. And my assumption is that the Turkey Vulture site got their facts from the Florida site, not the other way around, but I confess I can't provide evidence to justify my assumption. --Bob

[Estonut]

I believe I said I never satisfactorily figured out why I knew the answer.

I also never talked about how I knew the answer before today.

You did say (at least twice) that the clue was in the question...

[Jeemie]

I believe I said I never satisfactorily figured out why I knew the answer.

I also never talked about how I knew the answer before today.

You did say (at least twice) that the clue was in the question...

Yes I did, but I didn't say that's how I knew it.

[sunflower]

Looks like Sunflower has found more than three...

I believe the issue is more about the term "venue" than "kettling," as many birds kettle.

I quickly perused the links provided and only found one, from the "Florida Wildlife Hospital and Sanctuary," that mentions the term "venue." I would not consider that an independent source, however, because their "vulture facts" are parroted (sorry) word-for-word from the Turkey Vulture Society's "vulture facts" page.

Really, I didn't see that mentioned before I found all the "kettle" references...but okay...

Yes, the aforementioned FWH&S link has the term venue.

Here is something from Catalyst Magazine: http://www.catalystmagazine.net/compone ... view&ed=13

Naturalist Newsletter from August 2005: http://www.backyardnature.net/sierras/turkvult.htm

Rosamond Gifford Zoo: http://rosamondgiffordzoo.org/assets/up ... ulture.pdf

Article from 2007: http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... tml?cat=33

[Estonut]

The Pennsylvania DCNR site also uses it, toward the bottom of the page. And my assumption is that the Turkey Vulture site got their facts from the Florida site, not the other way around, but I confess I can't provide evidence to justify my assumption. --Bob

Yup. I missed it. I thought I had text-searched each article for BOTH "venue" and "kettl". I was guessing that Florida got their facts from TVS because it is a subset of the list on the TVS page. I figured that if TVS were going to "borrow" someone else's list, why bother doing the work to expand it?

While looking over the Pennsylvania DCNR author's recollection of her day in nature, I thought it possible that she may have looked at the TVS site to get more information on turkey vultures, as her narrative hits nearly every single "fun fact" on their list. She did add the part about urinating on their legs, though. Perhaps that is elsewhere on the TVS site, but it is not in their list of facts.

[Estonut]

Looks like Sunflower has found more than three...

I believe the issue is more about the term "venue" than "kettling," as many birds kettle.

I quickly perused the links provided and only found one, from the "Florida Wildlife Hospital and Sanctuary," that mentions the term "venue." I would not consider that an independent source, however, because their "vulture facts" are parroted (sorry) word-for-word from the Turkey Vulture Society's "vulture facts" page.

Really, I didn't see that mentioned before I found all the "kettle" references...but okay...

Yes, the aforementioned FWH&S link has the term venue.

Here is something from Catalyst Magazine: http://www.catalystmagazine.net/compone ... view&ed=13

Naturalist Newsletter from August 2005: http://www.backyardnature.net/sierras/turkvult.htm

Rosamond Gifford Zoo: http://rosamondgiffordzoo.org/assets/up ... ulture.pdf

Article from 2007: http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... tml?cat=33

The 2 of these 4 articles who attribute their sources both list the TVS...

[sunflower]

From the Longleat's website (UK) - Longleat is featured on BBC's Animal Park.

http://www.longleat.co.uk/safari-park/s ... urney.html

The name for a collective group of vultures is a Venue and on the left, just before you enter the Monkey Jungle, is our Venue of White Backed Vultures, who can be seen free flying in their very large aviary.