Renegade

[earendel]

If I had been one who bashed President-Elect Obama during the election season, I might understand getting attacked as I was. However, if one will review the record, one will discover that I was quite respectful of all the candidates. All the way back to the Primary season. I afforded the same respect to all the candidates, even the ones with whom I disagreed on a plethora of policy issues.

The idea that certain perfectly valid words and phrases are now "off-limits" because the President-Elect happens to be a racial minority is distressing to me.

That phrase has been racially offensive for many, many years. I guess I should have included ignorant in the earlier suggestions, but I thought obtuse covered it. And, no, ignorant is not being used in a derogative way here.

I did not say YOU were a racist, I said that it was a racist statement. And I have no idea what you did or did not say about candidates during the election season, because I didn't read at least 87% of those posts.

I find nothing that would support your claim that "the jig is up" has been "racially offensive for many, many years."

When I was growing up there was a racially-insensitive joke, the punch line of which was this phrase. However it has been many years since I thought about that word being offensive. And I would not have thought it so in this context (the song "Renegade" and the use of "Renegade" as Obama's Secret Service code name).

[WheresFanny]

If I had been one who bashed President-Elect Obama during the election season, I might understand getting attacked as I was. However, if one will review the record, one will discover that I was quite respectful of all the candidates. All the way back to the Primary season. I afforded the same respect to all the candidates, even the ones with whom I disagreed on a plethora of policy issues.

The idea that certain perfectly valid words and phrases are now "off-limits" because the President-Elect happens to be a racial minority is distressing to me.

That phrase has been racially offensive for many, many years. I guess I should have included ignorant in the earlier suggestions, but I thought obtuse covered it. And, no, ignorant is not being used in a derogative way here.

I did not say YOU were a racist, I said that it was a racist statement. And I have no idea what you did or did not say about candidates during the election season, because I didn't read at least 87% of those posts.

I find nothing that would support your claim that "the jig is up" has been "racially offensive for many, many years."

Referring to a black person as a "jig" would be offensive, but that phrase has nothing to do with that.

Okay, if that is really true, then I'll just go with ignorant rather than insensitive, etc. See, you kind of got an apology! I just find it really hard to believe that someone of your age has never heard a 'jig is up' joke, but maybe you were somewhat sheltered.

History of the World, Part I:

Roman guard: The jig is up!

Josephus: And gone!

(Yes, that was played for humour, but it wouldn't be funny unless it was poking at the epithet.)

Popular joke when I was a kid:

"What did NASA say when the first black (I think it might have been "coloured" back then) astronaut was launched into space?"

"The jig is up!"

Just a couple examples of the top of my head.

[WheresFanny]

If I had been one who bashed President-Elect Obama during the election season, I might understand getting attacked as I was. However, if one will review the record, one will discover that I was quite respectful of all the candidates. All the way back to the Primary season. I afforded the same respect to all the candidates, even the ones with whom I disagreed on a plethora of policy issues.

The idea that certain perfectly valid words and phrases are now "off-limits" because the President-Elect happens to be a racial minority is distressing to me.

That phrase has been racially offensive for many, many years. I guess I should have included ignorant in the earlier suggestions, but I thought obtuse covered it. And, no, ignorant is not being used in a derogative way here.

I did not say YOU were a racist, I said that it was a racist statement. And I have no idea what you did or did not say about candidates during the election season, because I didn't read at least 87% of those posts.

WHAT??????????????????

"The jig is up" has no racial connotation to it at all! The most common given background for the saying relates to Irish jigs and the end of a dance. There also is some history of its use in England to relate to when a trick or joke is discovered.

The world has enough issues and made-up with regards to race and ethnicity without people creating even more out of thin air.

Fanny, you owe a huge apology to Cal for even implying that he would say something with racial connotations.

Who put a quarter in your slot?

As has been proven oh so many times, just because you are not aware of something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

"The jig is up" has no racial connotation to it at all!

This is one of the main problems I have with you. You tend to speak in absolutes even when you have NFI what you are talking about.

[TheCalvinator24]

That phrase has been racially offensive for many, many years. I guess I should have included ignorant in the earlier suggestions, but I thought obtuse covered it. And, no, ignorant is not being used in a derogative way here.

I did not say YOU were a racist, I said that it was a racist statement. And I have no idea what you did or did not say about candidates during the election season, because I didn't read at least 87% of those posts.

I find nothing that would support your claim that "the jig is up" has been "racially offensive for many, many years."

Referring to a black person as a "jig" would be offensive, but that phrase has nothing to do with that.

Okay, if that is really true, then I'll just go with ignorant rather than insensitive, etc. See, you kind of got an apology! I just find it really hard to believe that someone of your age has never heard a 'jig is up' joke, but maybe you were somewhat sheltered.

History of the World, Part I:

Roman guard: The jig is up!

Josephus: And gone!

(Yes, that was played for humour, but it wouldn't be funny unless it was poking at the epithet.)

Popular joke when I was a kid:

"What did NASA say when the first black (I think it might have been "coloured" back then) astronaut was launched into space?"

"The jig is up!"

Just a couple examples of the top of my head.

Never heard the second.

As to the first, please note that the phrase itself was used properly and in context. It was Gregory Hines' response that added a racial component to an otherwise neutral expression.

I won't accept "ignorant" either.

I was "sheltered"? HA

Google: Terrell, TX demographics

[Tocqueville3]

This is one of the main problems I have with you. You tend to speak in absolutes even when you have NFI what you are talking about.

I am absolutely positive that at some time or another the very same could be said about you.

[Appa23]

JIG IS UP - "The expression suggests that the dance is over and that the time has come to pay the fiddler. However, its derivation is more complicated. 'Jig' is a very old term for a lively dance, but in Elizabethan times the word became slang for a practical joke or a trick. 'The jig is up' - meaning your trick or game is finished, has been exposed, we're onto you now - derives from this obsolete slang word, not the 'jig' that is a lively dance." From "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, New York, 1997). Another reference says a jig was "probably a dance commonly known throughout all of western Europe fifteen centuries or more ago. But in England, around 1600, 'jig' became also a slang term for a practical term, a bit of trickery."

In my quick search of the internet, the only cites that I found to any racial connotation were related to the use by Mel Brooks, which you noted to be a harmless play on the epithet "jig". I also say a discussion liek this one where someone tried to say that "jig is up" is racially insensitive, and was refuted by the explanation of the actual source for the saying.

More than anything, I was amazed that you would think that Cal would post something that was racially derogatory.

Why so quick to brand someone a racist?

[WheresFanny]

Please read what I actually said. I did not say that your etymology was wrong. It was the statement "The jig is up" has no racial connotation to it at all!" that was absolute and incorrect.

In my quick search of the internet, the only cites that I found to any racial connotation were related to the use by Mel Brooks, which you noted to be a harmless play on the epithet "jig". I also say a discussion liek this one where someone tried to say that "jig is up" is racially insensitive, and was refuted by the explanation of the actual source for the saying.

You never learn, do you? Just because you can't find it on the internet doesn't mean that it doesn't exist! And I don't give a crap what somebody in a discussion on the internet refutes when I have personal knowledge to the contrary.

More than anything, I was amazed that you would think that Cal would post something that was racially derogatory.

Why so quick to brand someone a racist?

For the 58605833 time, I did NOT brand anybody a racist, I called the statement racist! And expressed my surprise as well, rather than something like "I would expect that you'd say something racist".

[TheCalvinator24]

Please read what I actually said. I did not say that your etymology was wrong. It was the statement "The jig is up" has no racial connotation to it at all!" that was absolute and incorrect.

In my quick search of the internet, the only cites that I found to any racial connotation were related to the use by Mel Brooks, which you noted to be a harmless play on the epithet "jig". I also say a discussion liek this one where someone tried to say that "jig is up" is racially insensitive, and was refuted by the explanation of the actual source for the saying.

You never learn, do you? Just because you can't find it on the internet doesn't mean that it doesn't exist! And I don't give a crap what somebody in a discussion on the internet refutes when I have personal knowledge to the contrary.

More than anything, I was amazed that you would think that Cal would post something that was racially derogatory.

Why so quick to brand someone a racist?

For the 58605833 time, I did NOT brand anybody a racist, I called the statement racist! And expressed my surprise as well, rather than something like "I would expect that you'd say something racist".

Question: Would someone who is not a racist make a racist statement?

Answer: No.

For a statement to be racist, it must carry a certain intent. And for that intent to be present, it must be present in the speaker/writer.

A non-racist may utter/write a racially insensitive or otherwise ignorant statement, but it is by definition not a "racist statement."

When you call a statement racist, you are (whether you intend to or not) calling the speaker/writer a racist.

[christie1111]

That phrase has been racially offensive for many, many years. I guess I should have included ignorant in the earlier suggestions, but I thought obtuse covered it. And, no, ignorant is not being used in a derogative way here.

I did not say YOU were a racist, I said that it was a racist statement. And I have no idea what you did or did not say about candidates during the election season, because I didn't read at least 87% of those posts.

I find nothing that would support your claim that "the jig is up" has been "racially offensive for many, many years."

Referring to a black person as a "jig" would be offensive, but that phrase has nothing to do with that.

Okay, if that is really true, then I'll just go with ignorant rather than insensitive, etc. See, you kind of got an apology! I just find it really hard to believe that someone of your age has never heard a 'jig is up' joke, but maybe you were somewhat sheltered.

History of the World, Part I:

Roman guard: The jig is up!

Josephus: And gone!

(Yes, that was played for humour, but it wouldn't be funny unless it was poking at the epithet.)

Popular joke when I was a kid:

"What did NASA say when the first black (I think it might have been "coloured" back then) astronaut was launched into space?"

"The jig is up!"

Just a couple examples of the top of my head.

Fanny, thank you for explaining. I have never heard this phrase used that way and would have no idea I had offended anyone.

I have only heard it in the context of 'they caught us' kind of way.

[tlynn78]

Sorry, Fanny - in my head, you're dead wrong. I was raised by a Tupelo, Mississippi-raised daddy, and I've never heard this connotation of 'jig.' Because your experience is different doesn't make Cal a racist. '

I keep being amazed by what seems to me to be the knee-jerk defensiveness of some of the Obamaphiles on here (and heretofore, would not have put Fanny in that group, btw). Maybe the knee-jerk reaction I'm seeing is not as much Obama-defending as Daniel, Appa, Cal, Flock-bashing. It appears to be open season. Just my .02.


t.

[Hello, Mini!]

Sorry, Fanny - in my head, you're dead wrong. I was raised by a Tupelo, Mississippi-raised daddy, and I've never heard this connotation of 'jig.' Because your experience is different doesn't make Cal a racist. '

I keep being amazed by what seems to me to be the knee-jerk defensiveness of some of the Obamaphiles on here (and heretofore, would not have put Fanny in that group, btw). Maybe the knee-jerk reaction I'm seeing is not as much Obama-defending as Daniel, Appa, Cal, Flock-bashing. It appears to be open season. Just my .02.


t.

She did present the possibility of ignorance and offered enlightenment, though. It's not Obama-defending, since he isn't the only black person on Earth. Although there are some who cannot see the accomplishments because of the skin tone...

[Rexer25]

My $.02...

Raised in West Texas, I heard this term (and many others) used in very negative contexts very often. There weren't a lot of "liberals" around to correct this usage. However, when I heard the song, I sang along with the lyrics, thinking the phrase meant "We've been caught", as often used in the movies, forgetting the racial overtones. If the song had come to mind when I saw the post, I might have quoted the lyrics as well (along with a comment about the organ riff that seems to end in a scream).

However, when Fanny pointed out it could be taken as a racist statement, I would have apologized. From my upbringing, I sometimes have racist thoughts in my head, and I mentally pinch myself for correction. I am in no position to utter any racist statements.

One other thing: I was raised 350 miles from and 10 years earlier than Cal. The 10 years make the bigger difference.

[secondchance]

Sorry, Fanny - in my head, you're dead wrong. I was raised by a Tupelo, Mississippi-raised daddy, and I've never heard this connotation of 'jig.' Because your experience is different doesn't make Cal a racist. '

I keep being amazed by what seems to me to be the knee-jerk defensiveness of some of the Obamaphiles on here (and heretofore, would not have put Fanny in that group, btw). Maybe the knee-jerk reaction I'm seeing is not as much Obama-defending as Daniel, Appa, Cal, Flock-bashing. It appears to be open season. Just my .02.


t.

oh, for the love of... after everything written and explained above, you think Fanny IS saying Cal is racist?

[Rexer25]

oh, for the love of... after everything written and explained above, you think Fanny IS saying Cal is racist?

I think Fanny originally said Cal unknowingly made a racist statement.

[TheCalvinator24]

oh, for the love of... after everything written and explained above, you think Fanny IS saying Cal is racist?

I think Fanny originally said Cal unknowingly made a racist statement.

Look at it again.

No "unknowingly" and the parenthetical made the current claim that she was only talking about the statement and not me rather weak as well.

[franktangredi]

oh, for the love of... after everything written and explained above, you think Fanny IS saying Cal is racist?

I think Fanny originally said Cal unknowingly made a racist statement.

"the jig is up" -- veiled racial slur or people reading veiled meanings into a common expression?

"lipstick on a pig" -- veiled sexist slur or people reading veiled meanings into a common expression?

I'm just wondering if anybody who is on one side of this controversy was on exactly the opposite side of the other one.

[TheCalvinator24]

oh, for the love of... after everything written and explained above, you think Fanny IS saying Cal is racist?

I think Fanny originally said Cal unknowingly made a racist statement.

"the jig is up" -- veiled racial slur or people reading veiled meanings into a common expression?

"lipstick on a pig" -- veiled sexist slur or people reading veiled meanings into a common expression?

I'm just wondering if anybody who is on one side of this controversy was on exactly the opposite side of the other one.

I'm on the same side of each. I thought the flap over lipstick was nonsense.

[starfish1113]

oh, for the love of... after everything written and explained above, you think Fanny IS saying Cal is racist?

I think Fanny originally said Cal unknowingly made a racist statement.

"the jig is up" -- veiled racial slur or people reading veiled meanings into a common expression?

"lipstick on a pig" -- veiled sexist slur or people reading veiled meanings into a common expression?

I'm just wondering if anybody who is on one side of this controversy was on exactly the opposite side of the other one.

:::raising hand:::

I believe neither expression was used in an offensive way by the speaker. The only definition I knew of "the jig is up" is "you've been caught" and I've always roughly equated "lipstick on a pig" with "rearranging chairs on the Titanic".

I guess that makes me ignorant.

[franktangredi]

I think Fanny originally said Cal unknowingly made a racist statement.

"the jig is up" -- veiled racial slur or people reading veiled meanings into a common expression?

"lipstick on a pig" -- veiled sexist slur or people reading veiled meanings into a common expression?

I'm just wondering if anybody who is on one side of this controversy was on exactly the opposite side of the other one.

:::raising hand:::

I believe neither expression was used in an offensive way by the speaker. The only definition I knew of "the jig is up" is "you've been caught" and I've always roughly equated "lipstick on a pig" with "rearranging chairs on the Titanic".

I guess that makes me ignorant.

Actually, you're on the same side of both of them. You believe they were both used innocently and blown out of proportion. So do I.

I think the whole "jig" thing is a matter of age. When I was in high school, it was already going out of use as a racial slur. However, you still occasionally hear the longer version "jigaboo" used as with racial connotations, such as in Spike Lee's movie School Daze.

[Bob Juch]

I think the whole "jig" thing is a matter of age. When I was in high school, it was already going out of use as a racial slur. However, you still occasionally hear the longer version "jigaboo" used as with racial connotations, such as in Spike Lee's movie School Daze.

I have heard both "jig" and "boo" used around here (NJ & NY).

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

I don't know why I am compelled to enlarge this thread, but in these parts, "jig" in reference to a person with a Black African heritage would be offensive. I think this it is a shortening of "jigaboo", which actually hurts me to type.

[Appa23]

At this point, I think that I am thoroughly confused.

No one is debating whether "jig" can be a racial epithet. The question is whether the statement "jig is up" is racial/racist.

Since I was not a Styx fan -- am I to understand that the phrase in the song has racial overtones, seeing that is what Cal was referencing in his original post?

[Ritterskoop]

At this point, I think that I am thoroughly confused.

No one is debating whether "jig" can be a racial epithet. The question is whether the statement "jig is up" is racial/racist.

Since I was not a Styx fan -- am I to understand that the phrase in the song has racial overtones, seeing that is what Cal was referencing in his original post?

In the song it does not have anything to do with race. It means we've been caught. The song lyrics are posted in this thread.

[secondchance]

No one is debating whether "jig" can be a racial epithet.

um... weren't you, earlier?

[tlynn78]

oh, for the love of... after everything written and explained above, you think Fanny IS saying Cal is racist?

I think every one of us is capable making a racist statement. I said in my head, it's wrong that Fanny immediately assumed a racist slur against Obama was Cal's intent with his "the jig is up" comment. Frankly, until he posted it, I didn't get the Styx connection to renegade, being musically ignorant myself. As stated, I believe it is part of what it seems to me has become rather a pervasive attitude around here that certain posters are fair game, and everything they say (type) should be automatically assumed to mean the worst possible connotation. Now you have .04.


t.