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PlacentiaSoccerMom
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#176 Post by PlacentiaSoccerMom » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:43 pm

BackInTex wrote: How do you know what or who lied and why they may have said anything? How do you know Emma is not the one lying? How do you know the officer was intentionally trying to get Emma in trouble? And how would she have gotten trouble?

PSM has not let us in on the original lie or the lie of lies to get Emma in trouble. At least I haven't seen it.'.

I would have answered sooner, but I had to drive Maddie to HB for Quiz Bowl.

The first day that the S.A.F.E. officer came to the school, she told the kids that they needed to do 10 hours of community service or they would not graduate from the program.

Emma, who knew what her sister had done for a similar program, asked her to clarify this comment Emma asked, "what will happen if you do not do the community service?" (When Maddie did a similar program service was option, people completing the service got a medal.)

Emma thought that she would say, you will get a certificate, but no medal, which was the case when Maddie was a 6th grader. Emma has 3 or 4 hours of homework a night and she wasn't sure how she was going to fit in this community service

Instead the officer said "if you don't do the community service, your parents will show up to the graduation and they will be embarassed because your name will not be called."

Emma told me what the officer said. I talked to Emma's teacher the next day and asked, did this officer make this comment, saying that parents will be embarassed at graduation, because coming from an authority figure it was reprehensible.

He confirmed that it was said. He told me that the teachers of 6th graders had a meeting about this comment and went to the principal. They thought that the comment was inappropriate. They wanted to teach the unit themselves but where told that they needed to have the police officer come.

We had to sign a note indicating that we gave permission for our children to do community service. Instead of signing the note, I sent in a letter.

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to inform you of the fact that I am not signing the permission slip allowing my daughter Emma to complete 10 hours of community service for the S.A.F.E. Program.

I value community service and spend a lot of my time volunteering, but my daughter Emma is overwhelmed with schoolwork. As a sixth grade GATE student, she has on average three hours of homework, reading and studying a night. She simply does not have the time to add any additional commitments to her life, particularly when these commitments are not part of the Content Standards for Sixth Grade Education, as established by the California State Board of Education.

Emma told me that her class was told by the S.A.F.E. officer that students needed to complete the community service, because if they didn’t and their classmates did, it might be embarrassing for their parents.

My understanding is that most drug prevention programs attempt to instill the belief in children that they shouldn’t succumb to peer pressure. Therefore, it seems incongruous for the program to teach the message of non-conformity, while urging them to be like everyone else in their peer group, or risk embarrassment.

I applaud my daughter for choosing to prioritize the activities in her life and being a non-conformist. I would never be embarrassed by her decision or her lack of a medal.


Emma gave the note to the S.A.F.E. officer who called me up. She told me flat out that she never made the parents being embarassed comment. She said that my daughter wasn't telling the truth and that I needed to correct her.

I thanked her for her time we ended the conversation.

The next day was my volunteering day and I told the teacher what the officer said. He once again reiterated the fact that Emma heard correctly. He was upset that she would call me and lie, and he talked to his principal about the issue.

I told Emma that I believed her. I told her that she needed to participate in S.A.F.E. because sometimes in life, there are things that you don't want to do, but in this case, she had to go with the program. She said that the officer lied and tried to get her in trouble, so how can she trust any information that the officer related. I told her that she needed to think for herself and if the officer relayed any information that Emma questioned, that Emma needed to research it for herself and ask questions.

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#177 Post by PlacentiaSoccerMom » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:52 pm

christie1111 wrote:Fortunately our DARE officers were more real world anyway.

They taught our 5th graders that the use of alcohol is illegal before 21. Drinking and driving is illegal. Having a glass or two of wine (insert beverage of choice) was reasonable if not abused.

Margarita anyone? Let's open up the EOSB&G and close this thread!

Image

Maddie had DARE and it was a much better program. The officers were younger and more approachable and everything wasn't so black and white.

Maddie always joked that from DARE she learned that Meth would make her skinny and she won't be so uptight about her grades if she smoked pot. The DARE officer explained why some people did certain drugs, but then he talked about what the long-term ramifications were, it scared the shit out of the kids.

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#178 Post by christie1111 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:59 pm

PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
christie1111 wrote:Fortunately our DARE officers were more real world anyway.

They taught our 5th graders that the use of alcohol is illegal before 21. Drinking and driving is illegal. Having a glass or two of wine (insert beverage of choice) was reasonable if not abused.

Margarita anyone? Let's open up the EOSB&G and close this thread!

Image

Maddie had DARE and it was a much better program. The officers were younger and more approachable and everything wasn't so black and white.
Maddie always joked that from DARE she learned that Meth would make her skinny and she won't be so uptight about her grades if she smoked pot. The DARE officer explained why some people did certain drugs, but then he talked about what the long-term ramifications were, it scared the shit out of the kids.

So what do you want from the bar?

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#179 Post by gotribego26 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:15 pm

mrkelley23 wrote:I do admit that I would pay money to watch my 3 boys, BiT's girls, PSM's girls, and Appa's crew, (not to mention Cal's and all the others on this Bored) get together for a day or two. With audio and video recording running, for posterity.
The CIA would audio and video tape the parents of this group to use as interrogations aids - talk or we will show you more. :D

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#180 Post by christie1111 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:17 pm

gotribego26 wrote:
mrkelley23 wrote:I do admit that I would pay money to watch my 3 boys, BiT's girls, PSM's girls, and Appa's crew, (not to mention Cal's and all the others on this Bored) get together for a day or two. With audio and video recording running, for posterity.
The CIA would audio and video tape the parents of this group to use as interrogations aids - talk or we will show you more. :D
Hi Tribe!

Want anything from the bar?
"A bed without a quilt is like the sky without stars"

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#181 Post by gotribego26 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:25 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Explain how a 5th grader (is that assumption correct?) can politely and respectfully 'confront' and 'spar' with a police officer in front of a class of children that the statement made previously by that officer was wrong, given that that child made it a personal mission to prove it, and the officer, wrong. It can't be done, primarily because the mission itself it self is disrespectful.
Change Police Officer to Science Teacher and specify the statement is that "Evolution is a fact".

So, if your 5th grade daughter 'confronted' and 'sparred' with the teacher to prove that they were wrong and made it a personal mission to prove them wrong they are being disrepspectful?

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#182 Post by Rexer25 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:27 pm

Tribe,

Are you deliberately ignoring Christie?

You could get yourself cut-off at the EOSB&G before you've even had 1 drink!
Enough already. It's my fault! Get over it!

That'll be $10, please.

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#183 Post by gotribego26 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:39 pm

christie1111 wrote:
gotribego26 wrote:
mrkelley23 wrote:I do admit that I would pay money to watch my 3 boys, BiT's girls, PSM's girls, and Appa's crew, (not to mention Cal's and all the others on this Bored) get together for a day or two. With audio and video recording running, for posterity.
The CIA would audio and video tape the parents of this group to use as interrogations aids - talk or we will show you more. :D
Hi Tribe!

Want anything from the bar?
Fill 'er up!!!!

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#184 Post by gotribego26 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:40 pm

Rexer25 wrote:Tribe,

Are you deliberately ignoring Christie?

You could get yourself cut-off at the EOSB&G before you've even had 1 drink!
I would never ignore hospitality from Christie - when I left this thread 4-5 hours ago it was on page 4 - I was catching up.

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#185 Post by christie1111 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:02 pm

gotribego26 wrote:
christie1111 wrote:
gotribego26 wrote: The CIA would audio and video tape the parents of this group to use as interrogations aids - talk or we will show you more. :D
Hi Tribe!

Want anything from the bar?
Fill 'er up!!!!
What should I fill it up with?
"A bed without a quilt is like the sky without stars"

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#186 Post by christie1111 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:04 pm

gotribego26 wrote:
Rexer25 wrote:Tribe,

Are you deliberately ignoring Christie?

You could get yourself cut-off at the EOSB&G before you've even had 1 drink!
I would never ignore hospitality from Christie - when I left this thread 4-5 hours ago it was on page 4 - I was catching up.
Tribe is a fan.

I think I will think up a nice bar snack but you have to leave this thread and go over to the other one to see what it is!

:D
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#187 Post by jsuchard » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:24 pm

WTF happened here?!?!

...and now getting back on-topic:
I can heartily recommend the book by Richard Dawkins entitled "The God Delusion".

There, now that ought to stir things up a little more.
* Either Arglebargle IV or someone else.

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#188 Post by PlacentiaSoccerMom » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:25 pm

jsuchard wrote:WTF happened here?!?!

...and now getting back on-topic:
I can heartily recommend the book by Richard Dawkins entitled "The God Delusion".

There, now that ought to stir things up a little more.
You are so bad!

You know, his mother says that Emma is just like him, and she is ALWAYS right.

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#189 Post by Bixby17 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:06 am

TheCalvinator24 wrote:
MarleysGh0st wrote:
TheCalvinator24 wrote: The point of my question is to ascertain why Bixby injected this issue in this thread.
Do you really not see BiT's point in ridiculing this report on astrophysics and how Bixby's question is related to that?
Oh, I think I do, but I don't want to assume anything. I think that many people believe that anyone who believes in a Young Earth is an idiot and can be discounted out of hand. If that's the point Bix was trying to make, then if anything, she was proving BiT's point.
Sorry I've been away and missed this.

I really was asking the question to get an answer and further understanding and not to ridicule. Within the group of people that I socialize with in person and and within my family, I do not know anyone that believes of a young earth and would like an explanation of it.

I'm a Christian, and I know lots of believers, but none of the variety that discount science. I've heard the young earther's points of views as characterized by people who don't believe that, but I've never heard it directly from someone who believes in the young earth. In fact, when I've read different things, I've heard different ages of the earth by various young earthers.

So, I was curious to know what BiT's beliefs (or Cal's or anyone else who believes in this, for that matter) were as it relates to the age of the earth? What's the alternative is to the scientific explanation? I know what the Bible says (and how it doesn't speak to a lot of these things too) but my reading of it isn't incompatible with science, and often when I watch programs about the origins of the universe, it makes me more in awe of God's creation and abilities.

When I read the article that BiT linked, it didn't generate any sort of response in me of of wow these scientists are clueless. So I wanted to know more about BiT's belief systems as it related to this.

What parts of science are ok, and what parts of science are not ok from the more literal readings of the Bible? I don't know and I truly would love an explanation of that from some folks here who believe in more literal interpretations of the Bible than I have.

And just another disclaimer, I am often a smartass, but am not trying to be one regarding this.

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#190 Post by earendel » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:24 am

BackInTex wrote:
wintergreen48 wrote:
Except that the very next chapter of Genesis specifically says that man (Adam?) was created before the plants and animals, who were created for his benefit. So, which one is true, and which one is false?
No it doesn't. Not 'specifically' or even indirectly.

It does not say 'created' in Genesis 2. It does say formed. And some scholars note that the original word used for 'formed' could also be transcribed as 'had formed', which indicates 'previously'.

Also, it does NOT say 'he formed man then or after that formed the animals and brought them to man.

It says he formed man, and he formed the animals, and he brought the animals in front of man.
True, but really irrelevant.

The Hebrew word used in chapter 2 is `asoth, which does mean "made". And some have used this to explain the differences between Genesis 1 and 2 - chapter 1 is "general creation" and chapter 2 is "special creation". But this is grasping at straws. There are passages in the Psalms in which the word bara' (found in chapter 1 and translated as "created") is used in parallelism with `asah (translated as "made"), indicating that they are synonymous ideas. Not only that, but Genesis 2 clearly states that there were no plants on the earth until after the man was created, and that after the man was created all of the animals of the earth were brought forth from the earth (not spoken into existence).
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#191 Post by earendel » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:35 am

wintergreen48 wrote:And anyone who actually reads it carefully recognizes that the reason for this is that chapter 2 (at least, after the first couple verses-- and of course when it was originally set down it was not divided into chapters and verses, that is a 'modern' convention) tells a completely different story from from the version given in the first chapter of Genesis, and it is told by a completely different person, who had a completely different point of view, and was writing at a completely different time: the style of language is entirely different, the word usage is entirely different (to the extent that the writer of the first chapter CONSISTENTLY uses a completely different, Babylonian word for God-- and he uses it in the plural form, although with singular verbs, no doubt reflecting the fact that the story derived from a time when the Hebrews believed that there were multiple gods but that they were special to One, Who was special to them-- while the writer of the second chapter CONSISTENTLY uses a completely different, Hebrew word-- in the singular-- for God).
Well, not exactly. The word used for God in chapter 1 is 'elohim, which comes from an old Semitic (not Babylonian) word, 'el. Grammatically it's what's called a "dual" formation, meaning that although it appears to be plural, it takes a singular verb (there are other examples in Hebrew also).
wintergreen48 wrote:Heck, if you want to be literal I can show you how most of the first chapter of Genesis is consistent with evolutionary theory: on the first day we had the Big Bang, then eventually the earth was formed; then the first living things-- plant-like things-- evolved, then the animals in the sea evolved, and the animals in the air were the first out of the sea (these being insects), and then the terrestrial animals, and then humans. It all fits (except for the bit about the sun and the moon and the stars being created after the earth and the plants).
Actually it isn't hard to fit that in also - God creates light on the second day, but the sun isn't created until day 4. This could be explained by suggesting that the purported viewer observed that there was light beyond the cloud layer that covered the earth, but not until the firmament is created and the waters separated was it possible to see the source of the light, i. e., the sun.

If you want to try and make Genesis 1 fit the Big Bang, that is.

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#192 Post by earendel » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:40 am

gotribego26 wrote:Change Police Officer to Science Teacher and specify the statement is that "Evolution is a fact".

So, if your 5th grade daughter 'confronted' and 'sparred' with the teacher to prove that they were wrong and made it a personal mission to prove them wrong they are being disrepspectful?
I dunno about that, but when I was in 7th grade my "science teacher" made some very obvious errors in teaching, and I took it upon myself to correct him. I didn't do it during class, however. I wrote notes and left them on the desk, and the next day he would acknowledge that "someone" had left him a note correcting what he had said. This happened four or five times. As young as I was I didn't see the need to confront Mr. Lewis in front of the other students, although I would have had he not been willing to acknowledge his errors.

The year after that class Mr. Lewis no longer taught and I found out that he had suffered a nervous breakdown. Not from what I had done, apparently - there were "other issues" in his life that caused it.
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#193 Post by gotribego26 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:29 am

earendel wrote:
gotribego26 wrote:Change Police Officer to Science Teacher and specify the statement is that "Evolution is a fact".

So, if your 5th grade daughter 'confronted' and 'sparred' with the teacher to prove that they were wrong and made it a personal mission to prove them wrong they are being disrepspectful?
I dunno about that, but when I was in 7th grade my "science teacher" made some very obvious errors in teaching, and I took it upon myself to correct him. I didn't do it during class, however. I wrote notes and left them on the desk, and the next day he would acknowledge that "someone" had left him a note correcting what he had said. This happened four or five times. As young as I was I didn't see the need to confront Mr. Lewis in front of the other students, although I would have had he not been willing to acknowledge his errors.

The year after that class Mr. Lewis no longer taught and I found out that he had suffered a nervous breakdown. Not from what I had done, apparently - there were "other issues" in his life that caused it.
Given the description PSM wrote, do you think Emma was wrong? I don't see anything wrong - but I don't have all the facts. But for the peace officer to flat our deny what the teacher heard sounds very wrong to me.

I think the method of correction depends on the situation - which I am unable to judge.

The world has changed since you and I were in 7th grade - but I had a very liberal Social Studies teacher in 7th grade and I came from a libertarian household (at that time we were republicans - we don't fit the current republican party very well). This teacher encouraged confrontation and sparing - all out of respect and learning other views.

We got to watch a bunch of the Watergate Select Senate commiteee hearings. I wish current Senators would emulate Sam Ervin and Howard Baker on how to get things done

I had a 7th grade math teacher who was often wrong - I learned quickly to use your method of notes after class rather than correcting her in class. She couldn't handle being "shown up".

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#194 Post by christie1111 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:47 am

I thought I had successfully killed this last night!

Bloody Mary's, Mimosa's and Sparkling Christie's are available at the EOSB&G this morngin!

See you there. But don't ask for either of those other drinks.


EWWWWWWWWWWW!
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#195 Post by MarleysGh0st » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:49 am

gotribego26 wrote:Given the description PSM wrote, do you think Emma was wrong? I don't see anything wrong - but I don't have all the facts. But for the peace officer to flat our deny what the teacher heard sounds very wrong to me.
You're asking ear this, but I'm curious about BiT's answer to this question. Particularly now that PSM has filled us in on the details of the incident and it turns out that the situation involves pressure from a governmental authority figure to force a child into doing "community service".

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#196 Post by MarleysGh0st » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:52 am

christie1111 wrote:I thought I had successfully killed this last night!
Why are you trying so hard to kill the thread, christie? You don't have to read it if you don't want to.

Are you afraid that this argument is going to tear our community apart?

We have had some prior experience at this before. :wink:

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#197 Post by TheCalvinator24 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:52 am

I must confess that I regularly corrected my 6th Grade Math teacher openly in front of the rest of the class. I wasn't doing it to show her up. I just couldn't stand the errors, which also slowed us down.

I'm not saying it was right for me to do it, but I'm not sure it was wrong, either.

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#198 Post by Appa23 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:01 am

TheCalvinator24 wrote:6th Grade was the year that I figured out that I was smarter than most of my teachers.
Be careful, Cal. Statements like this one come back to haunt you. I speak from experience. :lol:

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#199 Post by christie1111 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:05 am

MarleysGh0st wrote:
christie1111 wrote:I thought I had successfully killed this last night!
Why are you trying so hard to kill the thread, christie? You don't have to read it if you don't want to.

Are you afraid that this argument is going to tear our community apart?

We have had some prior experience at this before. :wink:
Nah, it's just getting boring.

Actually, I started to feel like killing it when they started to go after PSMFamily. I can't abide by that.

Think what you like about science and religion, just leave people's families out of it.

Anyway, I thought it was a funny distraction.

I've got a busy day ahead so I'm pretty much done with it anywho.
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#200 Post by earendel » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:05 am

gotribego26 wrote:Given the description PSM wrote, do you think Emma was wrong? I don't see anything wrong - but I don't have all the facts. But for the peace officer to flat our deny what the teacher heard sounds very wrong to me.

I think the method of correction depends on the situation - which I am unable to judge.

The world has changed since you and I were in 7th grade - but I had a very liberal Social Studies teacher in 7th grade and I came from a libertarian household (at that time we were republicans - we don't fit the current republican party very well). This teacher encouraged confrontation and sparing - all out of respect and learning other views.

We got to watch a bunch of the Watergate Select Senate commiteee hearings. I wish current Senators would emulate Sam Ervin and Howard Baker on how to get things done

I had a 7th grade math teacher who was often wrong - I learned quickly to use your method of notes after class rather than correcting her in class. She couldn't handle being "shown up".
Funny - I fear nothing when it comes to a good Bible debate, but when it comes to parenting, I approach with fear and trembling. Since I don't know the principals involved, I'm reluctant to say one way or the other. I'm also unclear about the situation - it seems that there are two different things involved, one dealing with alcohol, the other dealing with community service. With respect to the first, I'd say that there might have been better ways to handle the situation (if it was a public matter), but with respect to the second, I think it was handled just as it should have been.
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