Here comes the Shutdown

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flockofseagulls104
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#126 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:53 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:OK, Let me try and understand this. According to your analysis, because we have a low utilization of capacity, it's alright to print money and borrow money so the Federal Government can spend it.
So as long as we have a lot of people unemployed, we can go ahead and rack up whatever debt we want to. But then when (and if) the economy picks up and more people are employed, then we have to stop printing money and borrowing.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Is this theory, or has this been tried before? If so, when has it been tried and how did it work out?

I wonder why the Soviet Union didn't think of this? Is this how we tried to get out of the Great Depression for more than a decade until WWII actually got us out of the Depression? We keep printing and borrowing money we don't have so we can spend it until we get into a big war to flush it out?
You appear to correctly understand matters, but no war is necessary to "flush it out." Normal economic growth will solve the problem for us. This is, in fact, how we started to get out of the Great Depression, and it was working. Then FDR made the tragic mistake of agreeing with the deficit hawks and pivoting too soon away from the necessary levels of deficit spending. That mistake extended the Great Depression for years.

World War II got us out of the Great Depression because relatively large levels of deficit spending suddenly became unavoidable, and because we were able to put our surplus economic capacity to work. Do you know how we paid back the debt we incurred? We didn't. It just shrank to insignificance as a fraction of the economy because the economy grew so much.

I believe Japan's new government intends to use this method to escape the liquidity trap in which its economy has languished for a couple of decades. Japan's economy, by the way, is an object lesson in the destructive power of deflation, and illustrates why a touch of inflation is necessary to the health of an economy.

Notice, by the way that the other method (austerity) also has been tried in countries like Spain, and it had the predicted effect. The economy contracted, reducing tax revenues, and leaving the deficit approximately where it was before the attempt was made to reduce it. In other words, no gain, and a considerable extra amount of human suffering. --Bob
Here's my answer to you Bob. I don't expect it to sink in, but in my view, your analysis is purely ideological. You tell me government spending WOULD HAVE gotten us out of the great depression, but we never got to find out. You don't give me one instance where it worked, then you cite Spain as an example of what doesn't work. What works is the market without extensive government interference. Spain is not an example of that.

Milton Friedman, one of the great economists of all time, did the quantitative analysis, and he concluded the Great Depression was not caused by the stock market crash, but by government mismanagement of the recovery. And we only got out of it because of WWII and the fact we were the only viable big economy left not devastated by the war.

We are making the same mistakes we did back then, but we are giving so much more power to a centralized government that we may never get out of it.

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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#127 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:24 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: You tell me government spending WOULD HAVE gotten us out of the great depression, but we never got to find out.
Well, actually we did find out. What do you think happened in World War II? The Government spent tons of money hiring contractors to build guns, tanks, and planes; spent tons more money on scientific research that led to the development of atomic weapons, and spent tons more money on the biggest Federal jobs program in history: the Army and the Navy.

FDR did everything in World War II that he tried to do earlier, and on a much larger scale with much better results because his goal was more easily seen as being in the public interest.
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#128 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:10 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:OK, Let me try and understand this. According to your analysis, because we have a low utilization of capacity, it's alright to print money and borrow money so the Federal Government can spend it.
So as long as we have a lot of people unemployed, we can go ahead and rack up whatever debt we want to. But then when (and if) the economy picks up and more people are employed, then we have to stop printing money and borrowing.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Is this theory, or has this been tried before? If so, when has it been tried and how did it work out?

I wonder why the Soviet Union didn't think of this? Is this how we tried to get out of the Great Depression for more than a decade until WWII actually got us out of the Depression? We keep printing and borrowing money we don't have so we can spend it until we get into a big war to flush it out?
You appear to correctly understand matters, but no war is necessary to "flush it out." Normal economic growth will solve the problem for us. This is, in fact, how we started to get out of the Great Depression, and it was working. Then FDR made the tragic mistake of agreeing with the deficit hawks and pivoting too soon away from the necessary levels of deficit spending. That mistake extended the Great Depression for years.

World War II got us out of the Great Depression because relatively large levels of deficit spending suddenly became unavoidable, and because we were able to put our surplus economic capacity to work. Do you know how we paid back the debt we incurred? We didn't. It just shrank to insignificance as a fraction of the economy because the economy grew so much.

I believe Japan's new government intends to use this method to escape the liquidity trap in which its economy has languished for a couple of decades. Japan's economy, by the way, is an object lesson in the destructive power of deflation, and illustrates why a touch of inflation is necessary to the health of an economy.

Notice, by the way that the other method (austerity) also has been tried in countries like Spain, and it had the predicted effect. The economy contracted, reducing tax revenues, and leaving the deficit approximately where it was before the attempt was made to reduce it. In other words, no gain, and a considerable extra amount of human suffering. --Bob
Here's my answer to you Bob. I don't expect it to sink in, but in my view, your analysis is purely ideological. You tell me government spending WOULD HAVE gotten us out of the great depression, but we never got to find out. You don't give me one instance where it worked, then you cite Spain as an example of what doesn't work. What works is the market without extensive government interference. Spain is not an example of that.

Milton Friedman, one of the great economists of all time, did the quantitative analysis, and he concluded the Great Depression was not caused by the stock market crash, but by government mismanagement of the recovery. And we only got out of it because of WWII and the fact we were the only viable big economy left not devastated by the war.

We are making the same mistakes we did back then, but we are giving so much more power to a centralized government that we may never get out of it.

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/t ... n-friedman
Friedman was an anti-Keynesian. Keynesian economics have been proven correct.
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#129 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:11 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: You tell me government spending WOULD HAVE gotten us out of the great depression, but we never got to find out.
Well, actually we did find out. What do you think happened in World War II? The Government spent tons of money hiring contractors to build guns, tanks, and planes; spent tons more money on scientific research that led to the development of atomic weapons, and spent tons more money on the biggest Federal jobs program in history: the Army and the Navy.

FDR did everything in World War II that he tried to do earlier, and on a much larger scale with much better results because his goal was more easily seen as being in the public interest.
Just a different viewpoint:

After the war, we became the world supplier in everything, because we were the only technologically advanced country that wasn't destroyed. The previous government spending and the war supplied the debt. The private sector, the shared sacrifices of our parents and grandparents and the free market got us out of the depression and paid off the debt.

But what do I know? You, Bob and Obama know everything. If it weren't for those damn tea partiers and the gall of them actually trying to stick to their principles, we'd be in Utopia by now.
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#130 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:17 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: You tell me government spending WOULD HAVE gotten us out of the great depression, but we never got to find out.
Well, actually we did find out. What do you think happened in World War II? The Government spent tons of money hiring contractors to build guns, tanks, and planes; spent tons more money on scientific research that led to the development of atomic weapons, and spent tons more money on the biggest Federal jobs program in history: the Army and the Navy.

FDR did everything in World War II that he tried to do earlier, and on a much larger scale with much better results because his goal was more easily seen as being in the public interest.
Just a different viewpoint:

After the war, we became the world supplier in everything, because we were the only technologically advanced country that wasn't destroyed. The previous government spending and the war supplied the debt. The private sector, the shared sacrifices of our parents and grandparents and the free market got us out of the depression and paid off the debt.

But what do I know? You, Bob and Obama know everything. If it weren't for those damn tea partiers and the gall of them actually trying to stick to their principles, we'd be in Utopia by now.
We did not become the world supplier in everything after the war because we don't have everything. We were also not the only technologically advanced country that wasn't destroyed. London took a hit but England was far from destroyed.
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#131 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:36 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: The private sector, the shared sacrifices of our parents and grandparents and the free market got us out of the depression and paid off the debt.
The private sector and free market sure didn't do much of a job getting us out of the first ten years of the depression. What changed in the 1940s was a government willing to pump billions into manufacturing and research and billions more into hiring the largest Army and Navy in history, jobs which simply did not exist in the 1930s.
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#132 Post by themanintheseersuckersuit » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:15 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: The private sector, the shared sacrifices of our parents and grandparents and the free market got us out of the depression and paid off the debt.
The private sector and free market sure didn't do much of a job getting us out of the first ten years of the depression. What changed in the 1940s was a government willing to pump billions into manufacturing and research and billions more into hiring the largest Army and Navy in history, jobs which simply did not exist in the 1930s.
The government stopped spending so much after the war and the economy ignited
Suitguy is not bitter.

feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive

The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.

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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#133 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:21 pm

themanintheseersuckersuit wrote: The government stopped spending so much after the war and the economy ignited
Thank you for recognizing the essence of Keynsian economics. The government primed the pump in the early 1940s (which it wasn't fully able to do in the previous decade), and the ignited economy was able to sustain itself after the war. And let's not forget some key elements of the recovery that continued after the war like the GI Bill, which gave lots of people a college education they never would have gotten otherwise.
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#134 Post by littlebeast13 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:10 am

Beebs52 wrote:
Sistine Fanny wrote:
littlebeast13 wrote:

Expiration my ass. it's about time to commission Fanny X....

lb13
It is a time for martyrs now, and if I am to be one, it will be for the cause of brotherhood. That's the only thing that can save this board.
You are such a bogus flibberdigibbet. Ho. Fomenter. Shit-flinger.

(Do you think that qualifies for bored excitement? It's like a flash from the past or something, right? Non sequiturial filthmouth?)

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Woohoo!!!!! Bored deco is totally fabu these days....

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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#135 Post by danielh41 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:36 am

Bob Juch wrote: Friedman was an anti-Keynesian. Keynesian economics have been proven correct.
I almost choked on my Diet Dr. Pepper when I read that statement. That's funny.

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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#136 Post by themanintheseersuckersuit » Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:14 pm

With U.S. Park Service employees on furlough, a South Carolina man took it upon himself on Wednesday to mow a lawn near the Lincoln Memorial. And law enforcement almost let him get away with it.
Cox, the one-man landscaping crew, calls himself the Memorial Militia. He told a Washington, D.C. radio station that he wanted to spruce up the grass before the weekend, because a 'Million Vet March' event is expected to bring scores of retired servicemen and women to the nation's capital.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z2hGHUTolL
Image
Suitguy is not bitter.

feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive

The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.

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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#137 Post by themanintheseersuckersuit » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:32 am

Suitguy is not bitter.

feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive

The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.

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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#138 Post by macrae1234 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:38 am

Shortly before President Barack Obama was re-elected, he confided to John Podesta, an informal adviser, a vow he was making for his second term: He would never again bargain with Republicans to extend the U.S. debt limit.

The precedent, set in the agreement that ended a 2011 budget standoff, “sent a signal that this was fair game to blackmail over whether the country would default,” Podesta, a onetime chief of staff to President Bill Clinton and co-chairman of Obama’s 2008 presidential transition, said in an interview. “He feels like he has to end it and end it forever.”

The stand Obama has taken on the latest fight over the government shutdown and borrowing limit -- refusing to tie policy conditions to raising the debt ceiling -- is an attempt to repair some of the damage that he and his aides believe he sustained by making concessions to Republicans to avert a default two years ago, according to former top administration officials and advisers.

The resolution of the showdown with House Republicans will be critical to maintaining Obama’s capacity to wield his clout in Washington during the three years left in his presidency and protect the political initiatives of his first term, they say.

The outcome will probably help determine his leverage to press for new priorities such as a revamp of immigration law, expanded access to pre-kindergarten education and infrastructure funding. It may also stave off attacks on his health-care law and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

If Obama makes concessions again to House Republicans over raising the $16.7 trillion debt limit, “he’ll be viewed as a guy who you can hold up,” said Podesta, chairman of the Center for American Progress, a Washington research group with close ties to the administration.

Obama is surrounded by a core group of aides who are mostly veterans of the 2011 debt negotiations, which were followed by the first downgrade of U.S. government debt.

They include senior advisers Dan Pfeiffer and Valerie Jarrett, National Economic Council Director Gene Sperling, Treasury Secretary Jack Lew, Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers Jason Furman and White House deputy chief of staff Rob Nabors. Denis McDonough, now White House chief of staff, also was a witness to the prior fiscal crisis, though at the time he was on the National Security Council staff.

‘Reach Consensus’
Republicans have portrayed the administration’s refusal to negotiate as a rigid position that’s bringing the country closer to a crisis. House Majority Leader Eric Cantor of Virginia criticized Obama’s stance as “one party simply refusing to negotiate” in an essay published in the Washington Post.

“Mr. President, let’s sit down and talk,” Cantor wrote yesterday. “Let’s reach consensus and end the ‘my way or the highway’ attitude once and for all.”

A group of House Republicans, led by Speaker John Boehner of Ohio and Cantor, is scheduled to meet today with the president. House Republican and Senate Democratic leaders are open to a short-term increase in the debt limit, according to congressional aides of both parties who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss strategy.

Boehner’s spokesman, Michael Steel, said the Republican leaders propose to increase the debt limit through Nov. 22 and engage in budget negotiations without ending the partial government shutdown.

Obama’s allies have been heartened by polls showing that the public places more of the blame for the government shutdown on Republicans. A Pew Research Center poll taken Oct. 3-6 found 38 percent of Americans say Republican leaders in Congress are more to blame compared with 30 percent who cite Obama.

An Oct. 3-6 Gallup Poll found that 28 percent of Americans have a favorable view of the Republican Party -- the lowest for a major party since Gallup began asking in 1992 and down from 38 percent a month earlier. Forty-three percent held a favorable view of Democrats, compared with 47 percent a month earlier.

On Obama
At the same time, a political breakdown that leads to a debt default carries greater risk over the long run for Obama than for the Republicans. An economic crisis that might tip the country back into recession would tarnish his presidency and the durability of his initiatives such as expanding health care to millions of uninsured Americans and pushing through the most sweeping changes in financial-market rules in seven decades.

“There’s a hell of a lot more at stake for the president of the United States,” said Leon Panetta, Obama’s former defense secretary and Central Intelligence Agency director. “Nobody remembers who was speaker of the House when we went into the Depression; everybody remembers who the president was.”. That is a tragedy because Nicholas Longworth was a character and probably one of the best speakers ever

After an effective term as Majority Leader, Longworth moved up to become Speaker in 1925 after Frederick Gillett took a seat in the United States Senate. Ironically, his first act as speaker was to restore much of the power to the office that had been stripped away during the revolt against Joseph Cannon that he helped lead.

Longworth began his tenure by punishing 13 self-styled Progressives, who supported Robert LaFollette instead of Calvin Coolidge in 1924. He expelled the rebels from the GOP caucus, and stripped even the committee chairmen among them of all seniority. Longworth took control of the Steering Committee and Committee on Committees and placed his own men on the Rules Committee, guaranteeing that he controlled the work of the House.

Ignoring the left wing of the party, Longworth passed legislation that aimed for balanced budgets and major tax reductions, resisting any new programs that would expand the role of government. However, Longworth defied President Herbert Hoover in 1931 by supporting the long-stalled veterans bonus bill; it passed but Hoover vetoed it, setting up the Bonus March of 1932.

Longworth reached across the aisle to Democrats, forging a productive relationship with John Nance Garner, FDR’s first VP and at the time the House minority leader, who relied upon informal methods to strengthen his party's influence. He enjoyed a close rapport with Garner, who said of Longworth, "I was the heathen and Nick was the aristocrat." Together they hosted a daily gathering of Democratic and Republican congressmen in a secluded room in the Capitol, which became known as the "Bureau of Education." This unofficial club provided a place for politicians to relax with a drink and get to know and work with one another across party lines.

One historian sums up Longworth: "Debonair and aristocratic, given to wearing spats and carrying a gold-headed cane, he was anything but a typical politician. He was perpetually cheerful, quick with a joke or witty retort, and unfailingly friendly. He seemed never to have a care and made hard decisions with such ease and detachment that some people wondered if anything at all really mattered to him."

One particular famous retort is told about Longworth. One day, while lounging in a chair at the Capitol, another member of the House ran his hand over Longworth's bald pate and commented, "Nice and smooth. Feels just like my wife's bottom." Longworth felt his own head and returned an answer: "Yes, so it does."

He added: “Presidents who are successful are ultimately presidents who are able to get it done, get beyond this crisis. We cannot be a country that is constantly facing crisis.”

The economy already is showing signs of stress from the showdown between Obama and the House Republicans, similar to the damage sustained during the 2011 debt crisis.

The Gallup Poll’s weekly economic-confidence index plummeted 12 points in the week ending Oct. 6, the deepest plunge since the September 2008 collapse of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.

Stalemate Concern
The S&P 500 stock index has dropped 4 percent through yesterday since hitting a high on Sept. 18 amid concern about the political stalemate in Washington.

During the 2011 debt talks, the S&P 500 stock index fell 16.8 percent between July 22, when negotiations on a broad budget deal collapsed, and Aug. 8, the first trading day after the government’s AAA debt was downgraded. The index didn’t recover to its July 22 level until February 2012.

In 2011, Obama avoided a default with an agreement to cut federal spending by $917 billion over a decade and eventually put in place another $1.2 trillion in automatic, across-the-board spending cuts.

After those debt talks, growth slowed, though it regained enough strength by 2012 that Obama won re-election in a campaign partly based on his role shepherding a recovery from the 2007-2009 recession.

‘Fear Gauge’
Among the real-time monitors the administration paid close attention to during the 2011 budget battle was the Chicago Board Options Exchange Volatility Index, said William Daley, who was then the White House chief of staff.

The VIX, sometimes nicknamed the market’s “fear gauge,” rises when investors anticipate more stock market volatility in the future.

It surged from 13.16 on Sept. 19 to 19.6 yesterday, before dropping this morning to 17 as of 12:07 p.m. That’s less than half the VIX’s peak of 48 reached during the 2011 debt crisis.

Along with the VIX and broad market measures, the administration is also currently closely watching near-term Treasury yields and credit default swaps on U.S. Treasury debt.

Credit-default swaps on U.S. Treasuries fell from a seven-month high, dropping three basis point to 37 basis points, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. That compares with 21 basis points last month and about 65 basis points in 2011, the last time Congress played brinkmanship over the debt limit.

Rates on Treasury bills due Oct. 24 dropped to 0.28 percent as of 10:57 a.m. They were zero on Sept. 17.

Presidential Power
Obama has made the preservation of presidential power a centerpiece of his argument against meeting Republican conditions for renewal of the debt limit or a short-term extension of government funding needed to end the shutdown.

“You don’t pay a ransom; you don’t provide concessions for Congress doing its job and America paying its bills,” he said in an Oct. 8 news conference. He continued to use rhetoric belittling Republican resistance. “You don’t get a chance to call your bank and say, ‘I’m not going to pay my mortgage this month unless you throw in a new car and an Xbox,’” he said.

Obama and his aides in 2011 frustrated many Senate Democrats who saw them either as naïve or too focused on the 2012 campaign, said Jim Manley, a senior director at QGA Public Affairs and a former top aide to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid.

Then-chief of staff Daley and adviser David Plouffe were so intent on gaining support from independent voters, Manley said, that they “spent months trying to cut a deal with Speaker Boehner, when everyone else knew there was no deal to be had.”

“They’ve learned the lesson,” Manley said. “They’ve adjusted their tactics and taken a much harder line this time around, refusing to get into negotiations just for the sake of negotiations or optics.”

Obama also doesn’t have to run for election again.

Even so, Manley said, “It doesn’t mean everyone on the Hill isn’t going to be nervously watching how this thing plays out.”

To contact the reporters on this story: Mike Dorning in Washington at mdorning@bloomberg.net; Margaret Talev in Washington at mtalev@bloomberg.net

I added the notes on Longworth
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#139 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:52 am

Shortly before President Barack Obama was re-elected, he confided to John Podesta, an informal adviser, a vow he was making for his second term: He would never again bargain with Republicans to extend the U.S. debt limit.

The precedent, set in the agreement that ended a 2011 budget standoff, “sent a signal that this was fair game to blackmail over whether the country would default,” Podesta, a onetime chief of staff to President Bill Clinton and co-chairman of Obama’s 2008 presidential transition, said in an interview. “He feels like he has to end it and end it forever.”
I think a large part of the reason for this mess is the Republican belief that eventually Obama is going to back down. Despite Republican rhetoric, Obama has been very conciliatory and willing to negotiate time and time again, as he did in 2011. There was some reason to believe Obama would buy into the line about "compromising." However, they went too far and now they know it. Today, the Koch brothers let it be known that they aren't interesting in any type of grandstanding that might result in a default, for the simple reason that it would cost them hundreds of millions of dollars.

Bottom line is that I think the shutdown ends, there is an extension on the debt ceiling for a few weeks at which time Obamcare is off the table, and there's a standalone vote in the not too distant future on repealing the medical device tax, which enough Democrats will support in order for it to pass.
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#140 Post by Bob Juch » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:13 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Shortly before President Barack Obama was re-elected, he confided to John Podesta, an informal adviser, a vow he was making for his second term: He would never again bargain with Republicans to extend the U.S. debt limit.

The precedent, set in the agreement that ended a 2011 budget standoff, “sent a signal that this was fair game to blackmail over whether the country would default,” Podesta, a onetime chief of staff to President Bill Clinton and co-chairman of Obama’s 2008 presidential transition, said in an interview. “He feels like he has to end it and end it forever.”
I think a large part of the reason for this mess is the Republican belief that eventually Obama is going to back down. Despite Republican rhetoric, Obama has been very conciliatory and willing to negotiate time and time again, as he did in 2011. There was some reason to believe Obama would buy into the line about "compromising." However, they went too far and now they know it. Today, the Koch brothers let it be known that they aren't interesting in any type of grandstanding that might result in a default, for the simple reason that it would cost them hundreds of millions of dollars.

Bottom line is that I think the shutdown ends, there is an extension on the debt ceiling for a few weeks at which time Obamcare is off the table, and there's a standalone vote in the not too distant future on repealing the medical device tax, which enough Democrats will support in order for it to pass.
The Republicans idea of a compromise is along the lines of: "Well, we'll cut off just two fingers instead of three."
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#141 Post by macrae1234 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:21 pm

Bottom line is that I think the shutdown ends, there is an extension on the debt ceiling for a few weeks at which time Obamcare is off the table, and there's a standalone vote in the not too distant future on repealing the medical device tax, which enough Democrats will support in order for it to pass.
sounds like a plan to me
I am seeing those ads on TV again You never see so many lies false claims etc as at election time until now.
We can't afford the AHA, well we couldn't afford VietNam, Iraq or Afghanistan either and this well crete more jobs and help more underpriveleged people.
Rates will sky rocket no they won't an emergency room is the worst place to get care people go there and tie up the system a clinic can do the same thing at much less. It's the opposite of throwing a pass in football 3 things can happen and 2 are bad Because people have an insurance plan they will get earlier needed care and reduce future care costs and they will get the reduced insurance rate not the hospital fee for service 50.00 aspirin rate. I forsee ads in a few years for health insurance companies on TV like car insurance promoting the best coverage for less
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#142 Post by themanintheseersuckersuit » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:22 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
Shortly before President Barack Obama was re-elected, he confided to John Podesta, an informal adviser, a vow he was making for his second term: He would never again bargain with Republicans to extend the U.S. debt limit.

The precedent, set in the agreement that ended a 2011 budget standoff, “sent a signal that this was fair game to blackmail over whether the country would default,” Podesta, a onetime chief of staff to President Bill Clinton and co-chairman of Obama’s 2008 presidential transition, said in an interview. “He feels like he has to end it and end it forever.”
I think a large part of the reason for this mess is the Republican belief that eventually Obama is going to back down. Despite Republican rhetoric, Obama has been very conciliatory and willing to negotiate time and time again, as he did in 2011. There was some reason to believe Obama would buy into the line about "compromising." However, they went too far and now they know it. Today, the Koch brothers let it be known that they aren't interesting in any type of grandstanding that might result in a default, for the simple reason that it would cost them hundreds of millions of dollars.

Bottom line is that I think the shutdown ends, there is an extension on the debt ceiling for a few weeks at which time Obamcare is off the table, and there's a standalone vote in the not too distant future on repealing the medical device tax, which enough Democrats will support in order for it to pass.
The Republicans idea of a compromise is along the lines of: "Well, we'll cut off just two fingers instead of three."
Sadly it's their own fingers
Suitguy is not bitter.

feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive

The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.

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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#143 Post by Bob Juch » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:52 pm

themanintheseersuckersuit wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
I think a large part of the reason for this mess is the Republican belief that eventually Obama is going to back down. Despite Republican rhetoric, Obama has been very conciliatory and willing to negotiate time and time again, as he did in 2011. There was some reason to believe Obama would buy into the line about "compromising." However, they went too far and now they know it. Today, the Koch brothers let it be known that they aren't interesting in any type of grandstanding that might result in a default, for the simple reason that it would cost them hundreds of millions of dollars.

Bottom line is that I think the shutdown ends, there is an extension on the debt ceiling for a few weeks at which time Obamcare is off the table, and there's a standalone vote in the not too distant future on repealing the medical device tax, which enough Democrats will support in order for it to pass.
The Republicans idea of a compromise is along the lines of: "Well, we'll cut off just two fingers instead of three."
Sadly it's their own fingers
I think we're seeing the effective death of the Republican Party.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#144 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:39 pm

The stock market was up over 2% today, the best day this calendar year.

Someone thinks a deal is imminent.
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#145 Post by Bob Juch » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:42 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:The stock market was up over 2% today, the best day this calendar year.

Someone thinks a deal is imminent.
The Kochs must have sold their shorts yesterday. :twisted:
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)

Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.

Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.

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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#146 Post by earendel » Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:19 am

Bob Juch wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:The stock market was up over 2% today, the best day this calendar year.

Someone thinks a deal is imminent.
The Kochs must have sold their shorts yesterday. :twisted:
Does that mean that they're going commando today? :mrgreen:
"Elen sila lumenn omentielvo...A star shines on the hour of our meeting."

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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#147 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:21 am

This whole mess shows how dysfunctional and irresponsible Washington is. Yet we keep letting them vote themselves more power over us. If this is not a wake up call that Obamacare should be stopped, I don't know what is. The fault for the way Washington is is ours, for electing people like Reid, Boehner, McCain, Pelosi, Obama, etc and sending them back as career politicians.
Your friendly neighborhood racist. On the waiting list to be a nazi. Designated an honorary snowflake... Always typical, unlike others.., Fulminator, Hopelessly in the tank for trump... inappropriate... Flocking himself... Probably a tucking sexist, too... A clear and present threat to The Future Of Our Democracy.. Doesn't understand anything... Made the trump apologist and enabler playoffs... Heathen bastard... Knows nothing about history... Liar.... don't know much about statistics and polling... Nothing at all about biology... Ignorant Bigot... Potential Future Pariah... Big Nerd... Spiraling, Anti-Trans Bigot.. A Lunatic AND a Bigot.. Very Ignorant of the World in General... Sounds deranged... Fake Christian... Weird... has the mind of a child... Simpleton... gullible idiot... a coward who can't face facts... insufferable and obnoxious dumbass... the usual dum dum... idolatrous donkey-person!... Mouth-breathing moron... Dildo... Inferior thinker

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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#148 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:54 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote: If this is not a wake up call that Obamacare should be stopped, I don't know what is. The fault for the way Washington is is ours, for electing people like Reid, Boehner, McCain, Pelosi, Obama, etc and sending them back as career politicians.
Let me see if I have this right. Ted Cruz and a bunch of Tea Partiers who form a minority of the Republican majority in the House of Representatives send hundreds of thousands of people out of work and threaten a default on our debt to stop a bill that passed both houses of Congress, was signed into law and upheld by the Supreme Court and survived 40 attempts to repeal, delay, or defund it, and that's a wake up call that Obamacare should be stopped.

No, it's a wakeup call that radical Tea Party tactics should be stopped, and I have a feeling the voters will do that in 2014.
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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#149 Post by Bob Juch » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:37 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote:This whole mess shows how dysfunctional and irresponsible Washington is. Yet we keep letting them vote themselves more power over us. If this is not a wake up call that Obamacare should be stopped, I don't know what is. The fault for the way Washington is is ours, for electing people like Reid, Boehner, McCain, Pelosi, Obama, etc and sending them back as career politicians.
No, it's a wake-up call that the Republican Party should be stopped. They work for the 1% who pay them, not for us.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)

Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.

Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.

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Re: Here comes the Shutdown

#150 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:07 pm

The latest NBC/WSJ poll shows support for Obamacare and Democrats are up and Republicans down across the board since the shutdown (in all of these, favorable numbers are shown first):

-- Obamacare: In September 31-44; Now, 38-43

--Obama himself: In September 45-50; Now, 47-48

-- Generic Congressional ballot Democrats 47%, Republicans 38%, a five-point swing since September)

-- Republican party: Now 24-53, down 12 points since September (Tea Party favorables are now 21%)

--Who's responsible for the shutdown: Republicans 53%, Obama 31%

--Republicans put party over country: 70%; Republicans showing strong leadership standing up for beliefs: 27%

Great work, GOP.

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/10/10/gop-plum ... -standoff/
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