RIH Osama Bin Laden

[littlebeast13]

[flockofseagulls104]

It was gathered using more conventional techniques.

Yes, the 'Pretty Please with Sugar on Top' method is one of the more effective ones authorized by the Obama administration

Somehow, every police agency in the United States, from the FBI to the smallest podunk police department, gets actionable intelligence from criminals without either torturing them or saying "pretty please." The intelligence gathering in this case was apparently done by the military. That intelligence gathering would have been easier, more timely, and more productive if we had spent more time looking for bin Laden and other top Al Qaeda leaders in 2001 and the years immediately following rather than failing to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Note for SSS and othter liberals: The previous post was SARCASTIC.......

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

Hey Beast!

[Flybrick]

This Administration makes Mayberry look professional.

Again, kudos to them for being in charge when bin Laden was finally found and for giving the go ahead to kill him (but what other choice was there really?) via a ground assualt and not a Predator strike. Operationally and politically, this took a lot more courage to authorize never mind conduct.

The real heroes are the ones who pieced the puzzle together over these many years and the special operators who went in and completed the job.

Meanwhile, the story has already shifted from satisfaction at the accomplishment to "what did he know and when?" The White House lost control within 8 hours of the event with its contradictory stories, shifting details, and drawn out angst about releasing or not the post-mortem photos (hint: if they exist, they WILL be leaked eventually. Too bad this Administration has decided to not prosecute leakers anymore: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0411/53718.html)

The debate about enhanced interrogation/torture (for both sides, there ya go) is very publicly reignited with various current Administration officials saying it did/did not contribute to this eventual outcome.

My personal favorite is the arguments about "credit" for the achievement; is it Bush's or Obama's? As if credit is an Oscar-like trophy to be handed out by...er, whom exactly?

But that ever-faithful Omama lapdog Jonathan Alter unwittingly hit the nail on the head with http://realclearpolitics.com/video/2011 ... onomy.html. His point was that if Bush gets credit for bin Laden's demise, then Bush gets blame for the current economy, ergo, it sucks despite Obama and the Democrats in power from 2008-2010.

The problem is that Bush can't be defeated come 2012. One other guy can.

If we still have high unemployment and high gas prices, never mind the signs of inflation and debt instability, I'm betting this is another one term Democrat President.

The gang that can't shoot straight.


Oh, and as a bonus, I'm hoping that those with a very liberal viewpoint will comment on this little gem from a liberal broadcaster. What with the "no violent rhetoric" cries post-Tucson and the "outrages" of the likes of Limbaugh "wanting the President to fail" (which he seems to be doing a pretty fair job of), I'm sure this will be the lead story of CBS/ABC/NBC/MSNBC/New York Times/LA Times, etc, etc.

http://realclearpolitics.com/video/2011 ... _bush.html

And, of course, those Bored buddies who were on the "violent Republicans" bandwagon only a few short months ago.

And never mind about Seymour Hersh and our generation's Edward R. Murrow, Keith Olberman calling SEAL Team 6 "Cheney's private assination squad" in 2009. Olbie is now full of praise "for those brave heroes."

[silverscreenselect]

And, of course, those Bored buddies who were on the "violent Republicans" bandwagon only a few short months ago.

I'm sure Mike Malloy wishes he had the audience that Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh do.

Was Malloy wrong? Yes.

Were Beck et al wrong? Yes (which I've never heard very many conservative apologists say).

Have there been major incidents of violence inspired by Malloy and any of the other liberals? No.

Have there been major incidents of violence inspired by Beck and the other conservatives? Sadly, yes.

[Beebs52]

And, of course, those Bored buddies who were on the "violent Republicans" bandwagon only a few short months ago.

I'm sure Mike Malloy wishes he had the audience that Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh do.

Was Malloy wrong? Yes.

Were Beck et al wrong? Yes (which I've never heard very many conservative apologists say).

Have there been major incidents of violence inspired by Malloy and any of the other liberals? No.

Have there been major incidents of violence inspired by Beck and the other conservatives? Sadly, yes.[/quote]

Popcorn time on this. I want a lotta extra butter and a jumbo soda.

[Flybrick]

Soda?

I'm havin' a beer...

I'm sure SSS and others will be showing the Beck-inspired SEIU beating of a black tea partier in St Louis. Or the Limbaugh connection to the Tuscon shooter never mind Sarah Palin's infamous "bullseye" chart.

And the countless other heinous acts inspired by talk radio/TV personalities.

I'm simply asking for him and the other liberals to comment on the call for the assasination of a former President by an American liberal radio host.

Not "inspiring," but calling for it.

I'm sure that's different somehow as free speech and political expression.

edited to add: Has Beck or any other right wing commentator called for killing any former or sitting President? Or any other law-abiding person?

If so, they were wrong to do so, but I'd like some sort of factual proof that they did so.

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

And SSS doesn't address the main point I was making of the Barney Fife competance being displayed by the current Administrtion over the bin Laden issue.

[BackInTex]

Have there been major incidents of violence inspired by Malloy and any of the other liberals? No.

Have there been major incidents of violence inspired by Beck and the other conservatives? Sadly, yes.

Not that I'm asking for examples but this is easily explained.

The people who disagree with Malloy or other liberals are not violent or easily driven to violence.

The people who disagree with Beck or Limbaugh or other conservatives (or at least some [this is for Frank, because we are now friends ]) are violent or easily driven to it.

Probably an intelligence thing, IMO.

[silverscreenselect]

I'm sure SSS and others will be showing the Beck-inspired SEIU beating of a black tea partier in St Louis. Or the Limbaugh connection to the Tuscon shooter never mind Sarah Palin's infamous "bullseye" chart.

I'm not going to rehash the threads we had back in January other than to state that there have been a number of serious incidents (translated... shooting deaths) resulting from "fans" of Beck and other right wingers taking action. Whenever a discussion like this comes up, conservatives always try to trot out every instance of petty thuggery they can find to try to find some sort of moral equivalence.

And there's the usual attempt to boil Beck's actions down to whether they are criminally or civilly actionable. I'm sure Beck has very good attorneys advising him just what he can and can't say. Beck has been a de facto spokesperson for the right for years. I would think they would try to hold themselves to a higher standard than "he didn't say anything he could be sued or arrested for." Gilbert Gottfried didnt' say anything that was civilly or criminally actionable but it took Aflac about five minutes to do the right thing and terminate their relationship with him.

And SSS doesn't address the main point I was making of the Barney Fife competance being displayed by the current Administrtion over the bin Laden issue.

It's hard to take issue with something I agree with. Have you ever heard me make a claim that the Obama administration possessed any degree of competence?

And the entire spectacle that is unfolding here makes it hard for anyone, liberal or conservative, to place any credence in any of the supposed story of what went on, either during the raid, or in the years leading up to it.

[Flybrick]

Nothing to rehash. If anyone, left or right philosophically, can be "inspired" to commit illegal acts, the fault is with the individual.

That's the thing about that pesky free speech liberty we like. It cuts both ways. You don't like Beck's alternating frothing at the mouth and maudlin schtick. I don't like Keith Olbermann's faux morally outrage. The difference appears to be that I can recognize them both for what they are; entertainers trying, and succeeding, in making a buck.


I bet the photos are released either officially or leaked.

[silverscreenselect]

That's the thing about that pesky free speech liberty we like. It cuts both ways. You don't like Beck's alternating frothing at the mouth and maudlin schtick. I don't like Keith Olbermann's faux morally outrage. The difference appears to be that I can recognize them both for what they are; entertainers trying, and succeeding, in making a buck.

I recognize the rights of Beck and Olbermann to say what they do. I criticize those who continue to associate with them and in essence adopt them as de facto spokespersons. By that, I mean MSNBC and Fox and the politicians who go to them and the sponsors who enable them. If responsible people in the Republican party showed Beck the door, he'd be marginalized very quickly.

I don't know if Aflac cut Gottfried loose as a smart marketing move or out of a sense of morality and ethics. I do know it cost him a bunch of money and hopefully, he will think twice before the next time he exercises his pesky first amendment right to inflict needless harm on people in the name of "humor."

If you want to see how it should be done, look up Margaret Chase Smith's Senate speech in which she denounced Joe McCarthy. Of course, Smith demonstrated a degree of ethics and courage that's sadly lacking on both sides of the aisle nowadays.

[Flybrick]

Beck/Olbermann = Margaret Chase Smith?

Commentator/talking head = elected leader?

Wow, now that's a viewpoint.

[silverscreenselect]

Beck/Olbermann = Margaret Chase Smith?

Commentator/talking head = elected leader?

Wow, now that's a viewpoint.

Smith denounced McCarthy and those who adopted his witch hunt smear tactics (I'm sure if there had been talk radio in 1950, Beck, Limbaugh et al would be on the McCarthy bandwagon trying to find Communists in every nook and cranny). Just as Aflac denounced Gottfried. Just as almost no conservatives or Republicans today have denounced Beck and those of his ilk.

[Flybrick]

I know who/what Senator Smith did.

And you are equating a talking head with an elected official?

That is the "unique" viewpoint to which I'm referring.

Beck is out to make a buck (so is Olberman/ODonnell, et al).

A senator is not supposed to be.

Subtle difference.


Oh yeah, forgot this little nugget. Looks like Obama has lost another focus group: http://www.rgj.com/article/20110504/NEW ... nav%7chead

[silverscreenselect]

And you are equating a talking head with an elected official?

That is the "unique" viewpoint to which I'm referring.

Beck is out to make a buck (so is Olberman/ODonnell, et al).

A senator is not supposed to be.

Subtle difference.

Senators are not out directly to make a buck. Indirectly, they are out to influence public opinion to enable their agenda to get passed. The question is what tactics you will use to do so.

McCarthy was one loose cannon. But there were a lot of others in the Republican Party at the time who were unwilling to take him on, either out of fear of damaging themselves or out of a desire to ride his bandwagon back into power (at the time Smith gave the speech, Republicans were in the minority in both houses and Truman was President).

McCarthy in one sense is not analagous to Beck because he was a US Senator, but the tactics he used were similar to what a lot of radio personalities of today use. And Smith was right to denounce those tactics clearly and unequivocally.

I don't want to see the Republican Party ride to political victory on the Four Horsemen of Calumny -- Fear, Ignorance, Bigotry and Smear.
I doubt if the Republican Party could -- simply because I don't believe the American people will uphold any political party that puts political exploitation above national interest. Surely we Republicans aren't that desperate for victory. I don't want to see the Republican Party win that way. While it might be a fleeting victory for the Republican Party, it would be a more lasting defeat for the American people.

My respect for the Republican Party would have gone up tremendously if one single Senator had stood up and told Beck off the same way Smith told McCarthy off. But no one did.

[Flybrick]

My respect for the Republican Party would have gone up tremendously if one single Senator had stood up and told Beck off the same way Smith told McCarthy off. But no one did.

OMFG, are you dense?!

McCarthy was a senator with real power to make or affect public policy.

Beck is an entertainer with only the power you choose to give him.

Can you not see the difference?

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid saying the Iraq War was lost http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18227928 is an example of a political figure saying something destructive.

Glenn Beck saying Nancy Pelosi is out to ruin America is not.

President Obama giving the order to kill bin Laden was good. Watching the clown show afterwards is merely amusing.

[flockofseagulls104]

My respect for the Republican Party would have gone up tremendously if one single Senator had stood up and told Beck off the same way Smith told McCarthy off. But no one did.

Gosh, they actually had a chance to get your respect and didn't take advantage of it? How short sighted of them!

You better get off Beck's case or he'll come after you!!!!

[Flybrick]

A big difference between "I ordered" and those that actually have to carry out those orders.


SEMPER FI SOCIETY OF ST LOUIS SPEECH BY LTGEN KELLY on 13 NOV 2010

Nine years ago two of the four commercial aircraft took off from Boston, Newark, and Washington. Took off fully loaded with men, women and children—all innocent, and all soon to die. These aircraft were targeted at the World Trade Towers in New York, the Pentagon, and likely the Capitol in Washington, D.C... Three found their mark. No American alive old enough to remember will ever forget exactly where they were, exactly what they were doing, and exactly who they were with at the moment they watched the aircraft dive into the World Trade Towers on what was, until then, a beautiful morning in New York City. Within the hour 3,000 blameless human beings would be vaporized, incinerated, or crushed in the most agonizing ways imaginable. The most wretched among them—over 200—driven mad by heat, hopelessness, and utter desperation leapt to their deaths from 1,000 feet above Lower Manhattan. We soon learned hundreds more were murdered at the Pentagon, and in a Pennsylvania farmer’s field.

Once the buildings had collapsed and the immensity of the attack began to register most of us had no idea of what to do, or where to turn. As a nation, we were scared like we had not been scared for generations. Parents hugged their children to gain as much as to give comfort. Strangers embraced in the streets stunned and crying on one another’s shoulders seeking solace, as much as to give it. Instantaneously, American patriotism soared not “as the last refuge” as our national-cynical class would say, but in the darkest times Americans seek refuge in family, and in country, remembering that strong men and women have always stepped forward to protect the nation when the need was dire—and it was so God awful dire that day—and remains so today.

There was, however, a small segment of America that made very different choices that day…actions the rest of America stood in awe of on 9/11 and every day since. The first were our firefighters and police, their ranks decimated that day as they ran towards—not away from—danger and certain death. They were doing what they’d sworn to do—“protect and serve”—and went to their graves having fulfilled their sacred oath. Then there was your Armed Forces, and I know I am a little biased in my opinion here, but the best of them are Marines. Most wearing the Eagle, Globe and Anchor today joined the unbroken ranks of American heroes after that fateful day not for money, or promises of bonuses or travel to exotic liberty ports, but for one reason and one reason alone; because of the terrible assault on our way of life by men they knew must be killed and extremist ideology that must be destroyed. A plastic flag in their car window was not their response to the murderous assault on our country. No, their response was a commitment to protect the nation swearing an oath to their God to do so, to their deaths. When future generations ask why America is still free and the heyday of Al Qaeda and their terrorist allies was counted in days rather than in centuries as the extremists themselves predicted, our hometown heroes—soldiers, sailors, airmen, Coast Guardsmen, and Marines—can say, “because of me and people like me who risked all to protect millions who will never know my name.”

As we sit here right now, we should not lose sight of the fact that America is at risk in a way it has never been before. Our enemy fights for an ideology based on an irrational hatred of who we are. Make no mistake about that no matter what certain elements of the “chattering class” relentlessly churn out. We did not start this fight, and it will not end until the extremists understand that we as a people will never lose our faith or our courage. If they persist, these terrorists and extremists and the nations that provide them sanctuary, they must know they will continue to be tracked down and captured or killed. America’s civilian and military protectors both here at home and overseas have for nearly nine years fought this enemy to a standstill and have never for a second “wondered why.” They know, and are not afraid. Their struggle is your struggle. They hold in disdain those who claim to support them but not the cause that takes their innocence, their limbs, and even their lives. As a democracy—“We the People”—and that by definition is every one of us—sent them away from home and hearth to fight our enemies. We are all responsible. I know it doesn’t apply to those of us here tonight but if anyone thinks you can somehow thank them for their service, and not support the cause for which they fight—America’s survival—then they are lying to themselves and rationalizing away something in their lives, but, more importantly, they are slighting our warriors and mocking their commitment to the nation.

Since this generation’s “day of infamy” the American military has handed our ruthless enemy defeat-after-defeat but it will go on for years, if not decades, before this curse has been eradicated. We have done this by unceasing pursuit day and night into whatever miserable lair Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and their allies, might slither into to lay in wait for future opportunities to strike a blow at freedom. America’s warriors have never lost faith in their mission, or doubted the correctness of their cause. They face dangers everyday that their countrymen safe and comfortable this night cannot imagine. But this has always been the case in all the wars our military have been sent to fight. Not to build empires, or enslave peoples, but to free those held in the grip of tyrants while at the same time protecting our nation, its citizens, and our shared values. And, ladies and gentlemen, think about this, the only territory we as a people have ever asked for from any nation we have fought alongside, or against, since our founding, the entire extent of our overseas empire, as a few hundred acres of land for the 24 American cemeteries scattered around the globe. It is in these cemeteries where 220,000 of our sons and daughters rest in glory for eternity, or are memorialized forever because their earthly remains are lost forever in the deepest depths of the oceans, or never recovered from far flung and nameless battlefields. As a people, we can be proud because billions across the planet today live free, and billions yet unborn will also enjoy the same freedom and a chance at prosperity because America sent its sons and daughters out to fight and die for them, as much as for us.

Yes, we are at war, and are winning, but you wouldn’t know it because successes go unreported, and only when something does go sufficiently or is sufficiently controversial, it is highlighted by the media elite that then sets up the “know it all” chattering class to offer their endless criticism. These self-proclaimed experts always seem to know better---but have never themselves been in the arena. We are at war and like it or not, that is a fact. It is not Bush’s war, and it is not Obama’s war, it is our war and we can’t run away from it. Even if we wanted to surrender, there is no one to surrender to. Our enemy is savage, offers absolutely no quarter, and has a single focus and that is either kill every one of us here at home, or enslave us with a sick form of extremism that serves no God or purpose that decent men and women could ever grasp. St Louis is as much at risk as is New York and Washington, D.C... Given the opportunity to do another 9/11, our merciless enemy would do it today, tomorrow, and every day thereafter. If, and most in the know predict that it is only a matter of time, he acquires nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons, these extremists will use these weapons of mass murder against us without a moment’s hesitation. These butchers we fight killed more than 3,000 innocents on 9/11. As horrible as that death toll was, consider for a moment that the monsters that organized those strikes against New York and Washington, D.C. killed only 3,000 not because that was enough to make their sick and demented point, but because he couldn’t figure out how to kill 30,000, or 300,000, or 30 million of us that terrible day. I don’t know why they hate us, and I don’t care. We have a saying in the Marine Corps and that is “no better friend, no worse enemy, than a U.S. Marine.” We always hope for the first, friendship, but are certainly more than ready for the second. If its death they want, its death they will get, and the Marines will continue showing them the way to hell if that’s what will make them happy.

Because our America hasn’t been successfully attacked since 9/11 many forget because we want to forget…to move on. As Americans we all dream and hope for peace, but we must be realistic and acknowledge that hope is never an option or course of action when the stakes are so high. Others are less realistic or less committed, or are working their own agendas, and look for ways to blame past presidents or in some other way to rationalize a way out of this war. The problem is our enemy is not willing to let us go. Regardless of how much we wish this nightmare would go away, our enemy will stay forever on the offensive until he hurts us so badly we surrender, or we kill him first. To him, this is not about our friendship with Israel, or about territory, resources, jobs, or economic opportunity in the Middle East. No, it is about us as a people. About our freedom to worship any God we please in any way we want. It is about the worth of every man, and the worth of every woman, and their equality in the eyes of God and the law; of how we live our lives with our families, inside the privacy of our own homes. It’s about the God-given rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and “that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable right.” As Americans we hold these truths to be self-evident. He doesn’t. We love what we have; he despises who we are. Our positions can never be reconciled. He cannot be deterred…only defeated. Compromise is out of the question.

It is a fact that our country today is in a life and death struggle against an evil enemy, but America as a whole is certainly not at war. Not as a country. Not as a people. Today, only a tiny fraction—less than a percent—shoulder the burden of fear and sacrifice, and they shoulder it for the rest of us. Their sons and daughters who serve are men and women of character who continue to believe in this country enough to put life and limb on the line without qualification, and without thought of personal gain, and they serve so that the sons and daughters of the other 99% don’t have to. No big deal, though, as Marines have always been “the first to fight” paying in full the bill that comes with being free…for everyone else.

The comforting news for every American is that our men and women in uniform, and every Marine, is as good today as any in our history. As good as what their heroic, under-appreciated, and largely abandoned fathers and uncles were in Vietnam, and their grandfathers were in Korea and World War II. They have the same steel in their backs and have made their own mark etching forever places like Ramadi, Fallujah, and Baghdad, Iraq, and Helmand and Sagin, Afghanistan that are now part of the legend and stand just as proudly alongside Belleau Wood, Iwo Jima, Inchon, Hue City, Khe Sanh, and Ashau Valley, Vietnam. None of them have every asked what their country could do for them, but always and with their lives asked what they could do for America. While some might think we have produced yet another generation of materialistic, consumeristic and self-absorbed young people, those who serve today have broken the mold and stepped out as real men, and real women, who are already making their own way in life while protecting ours. They know the real strength of a platoon, a battalion, or a country that is not worshiping at the altar of diversity, but in a melting point that stitches and strengthens by a sense of shared history, values, customs, hopes and dreams all of which unifies a people making them stronger, as opposed to an unruly gaggle of “hyphenated” or “multi-cultural individuals.”

And what are they like in combat in this war? Like Marines have been throughout our history. In my three tours in combat as an infantry officer and commanding general, I never saw one of them hesitate, or do anything other than lean into the fire and with no apparent fear of death or injury take the fight to our enemies. As anyone who has ever experienced combat knows, when it starts, when the explosions and tracers are everywhere and the calls for the Corpsman are screamed from the throats of men who know they are dying—when seconds seem like hours and it all becomes slow motion and fast forward at the same time—and the only rational act is to stop, get down, save yourself—they don’t. When no one would call them coward for cowering behind a wall or in a hole, slave to the most basic of all human instincts—survival—none of them do. It doesn’t matter if it’s an IED, a suicide bomber, mortar attack, sniper, fighting in the upstairs room of a house, or all of it at once; they talk, swagger, and, most importantly, fight today in the same way America’s Marines have since the Tun Tavern. They also know whose shoulders they stand on, and they will never shame any Marine living or dead.

We can also take comfort in the fact that these young Americans are not born killers, but are good and decent young men and women who for going on ten years have performed remarkable acts of bravery and selflessness to a cause they have decided is bigger and more important than themselves. Only a few months ago they were delivering your paper, stocking shelves in the local grocery store, worshiping in church on Sunday, or playing hockey on local ice. Like my own two sons who are Marines and have fought in Iraq, and today in Sagin, Afghanistan, they are also the same kids that drove their cars too fast for your liking, and played the God-awful music of their generation too loud, but have no doubt they are the finest of their generation. Like those who went before them in uniform, we owe them everything. We owe them our safety. We owe them our prosperity. We owe them our freedom. We owe them our lives. Any one of them could have done something more self-serving with their lives as the vast majority of their age group elected to do after high school and college, but no, they chose to serve knowing full well a brutal war was in their future. They did not avoid the basic and cherished responsibility of a citizen—the defense of country—they welcomed it. They are the very best this country produces, and have put every one of us ahead of themselves. All are heroes for simply stepping forward, and we as a people owe a debt we can never fully pay. Their legacy will be of selfless valor, the country we live in, the way we live our lives, and the freedoms the rest of their countrymen take for granted.

Over 5,000 have died thus far in this war; 8,000 if you include the innocents murdered on 9/11. They are overwhelmingly working class kids, the children of cops and firefighters, city and factory workers, school teachers and small business owners. With some exceptions they are from families short on stock portfolios and futures, but long on love of country and service to the nation. Just yesterday, too many were lost and a knock on the door late last night brought their families to their knees in a grief that will never-ever go away. Thousands more have suffered wounds since it all started, but like anyone who loses life or limb while serving others—including our firefighters and law enforcement personnel who on 9/11 were the first casualties of this war—they are not victims as they knew what they were about, and were doing what they wanted to do. The chattering class and all those who doubt America’s intentions, and resolve, endeavor to make them and their families out to be victims, but they are wrong. We who have served and are serving refuse their sympathy. Those of us who have lived in the dirt, sweat and struggle of the arena are not victims and will have none of that. Those with less of a sense of service to the nation never understand it when men and women of character step forward to look danger and adversity straight in the eye, refusing to blink, or give ground, even to their own deaths. The protected can’t begin to understand the price paid so they and their families can sleep safe and free at night. No, they are not victims, but are warriors, your warriors, and warriors are never victims regardless of how and where they fall. Death, or fear of death, has no power over them. Their paths are paved by sacrifice, sacrifices they gladly make…for you. They prove themselves everyday on the field of battle…for you. They fight in every corner of the globe…for you. They live to fight…for you, and they never rest because there is always another battle to be won in the defense of America.

I will leave you with a story about the kind of people they are…about the quality of the steel in their backs…about the kind of dedication they bring to our country while they serve in uniform and forever after as veterans. Two years ago when I was the Commander of all U.S. and Iraqi forces, in fact, the 22nd of April 2008, two Marine infantry battalions, 1/9 “The Walking Dead,” and 2/8 were switching out in Ramadi. One battalion in the closing days of their deployment going home very soon, the other just starting its seven-month combat tour. Two Marines, Corporal Jonathan Yale and Lance Corporal Jordan Haerter, 22 and 20 years old respectively, one from each battalion, were assuming the watch together at the entrance gate of an outpost that contained a makeshift barracks housing 50 Marines. The same broken down ramshackle building was also home to 100 Iraqi police, also my men and our allies in the fight against the terrorists in Ramadi, a city until recently the most dangerous city on earth and owned by Al Qaeda. Yale was a dirt poor mixed-race kid from Virginia with a wife and daughter, and a mother and sister who lived with him and he supported as well. He did this on a yearly salary of less than $23,000. Haerter, on the other hand, was a middle class white kid from Long Island. They were from two completely different worlds. Had they not joined the Marines they would never have met each other, or understood that multiple America’s exist simultaneously depending on one’s race, education level, economic status, and where you might have been born. But they were Marines, combat Marines, forged in the same crucible of Marine training, and because of this bond they were brothers as close, or closer, than if they were born of the same woman.

The mission orders they received from the sergeant squad leader I am sure went something like: “Okay you two clowns, stand this post and let no unauthorized personnel or vehicles pass.” “You clear?” I am also sure Yale and Haerter then rolled their eyes and said in unison something like: “Yes Sergeant,” with just enough attitude that made the point without saying the words, “No kidding sweetheart, we know what we’re doing.” They then relieved two other Marines on watch and took up their post at the entry control point of Joint Security Station Nasser, in the Sophia section of Ramadi, al Anbar, Iraq.

A few minutes later a large blue truck turned down the alley way—perhaps 60-70 yards in length—and sped its way through the serpentine of concrete jersey walls. The truck stopped just short of where the two were posted and detonated, killing them both catastrophically. Twenty-four brick masonry houses were damaged or destroyed. A mosque 100 yards away collapsed. The truck’s engine came to rest two hundred yards away knocking most of a house down before it stopped. Our explosive experts reckoned the blast was made of 2,000 pounds of explosives. Two died, and because these two young infantrymen didn’t have it in their DNA to run from danger, they saved 150 of their Iraqi and American brothers-in-arms.

When I read the situation report about the incident a few hours after it happened I called the regimental commander for details as something about this struck me as different. Marines dying or being seriously wounded is commonplace in combat. We expect Marines regardless of rank or MOS to stand their ground and do their duty, and even die in the process, if that is what the mission takes. But this just seemed different. The regimental commander had just returned from the site and he agreed, but reported that there were no American witnesses to the event—just Iraqi police. I figured if there was any chance of finding out what actually happened and then to decorate the two Marines to acknowledge their bravery, I’d have to do it as a combat award that requires two eye-witnesses and we figured the bureaucrats back in Washington would never buy Iraqi statements. If it had any chance at all, it had to come under the signature of a general officer.

I traveled to Ramadi the next day and spoke individually to a half-dozen Iraqi police all of whom told the same story. The blue truck turned down into the alley and immediately sped up as it made its way through the serpentine. They all said, “We knew immediately what was going on as soon as the two Marines began firing.” The Iraqi police then related that some of them also fired, and then to a man, ran for safety just prior to the explosion. All survived. Many were injured…some seriously. One of the Iraqis elaborated and with tears welling up said, “They’d run like any normal man would to save his life.” “What he didn’t know until then,” he said, “and what he learned that very instant, was that Marines are not normal.” Choking past the emotion he said, “Sir, in the name of God no sane man would have stood there and done what they did.” “No sane man.” “They saved us all.”

What we didn’t know at the time, and only learned a couple of days later after I wrote a summary and submitted both Yale and Haerter for posthumous Navy Crosses, was that one of our security cameras, damaged initially in the blast, recorded some of the suicide attack. It happened exactly as the Iraqis had described it. It took exactly six seconds from when the truck entered the alley until it detonated.

You can watch the last six seconds of their young lives. Putting myself in their heads I supposed it took about a second for the two Marines to separately come to the same conclusion about what was going on once the truck came into their view at the far end of the alley. Exactly no time to talk it over, or call the sergeant to ask what they should do. Only enough time to take half an instant and think about what the sergeant told them to do only a few minutes before: “…let no unauthorized personnel or vehicles pass.” The two Marines had about five seconds left to live.

It took maybe another two seconds for them to present their weapons, take aim, and open up. By this time the truck was half-way through the barriers and gaining speed the whole time. Here, the recording shows a number of Iraqi police, some of whom had fired their AKs, now scattering like the normal and rational men they were—some running right past the Marines. They had three seconds left to live.

For about two seconds more, the recording shows the Marines’ weapons firing non-stop…the truck’s windshield exploding into shards of glass as their rounds take it apart and tore in to the body of the son-of-a-bitch who is trying to get past them to kill their brothers—American and Iraqi—bedded down in the barracks totally unaware of the fact that their lives at that moment depended entirely on two Marines standing their ground. If they had been aware, they would have know they were safe…because two Marines stood between them and a crazed suicide bomber. The recording shows the truck careening to a stop immediately in front of the two Marines. In all of the instantaneous violence Yale and Haerter never hesitated. By all reports and by the recording, they never stepped back. They never even started to step aside. They never even shifted their weight. With their feet spread should width apart, they leaned into the danger, firing as fast as they could work their weapons. They had only one second left to live.

The truck explodes. The camera goes blank. Two young men go to their God. Six seconds. Not enough time to think about their families, their country, their flag, or about their lives or their deaths, but more than enough time for two very brave young men to do their duty…into eternity. That is the kind of people who are on watch all over the world tonight—for you.

We Marines believe that God gave America the greatest gift he could bestow to man while he lived on this earth—freedom. We also believe he gave us another gift nearly as precious—our soldiers, sailors, airmen, Coast Guardsmen, and Marines—to safeguard that gift and guarantee no force on this earth can every steal it away. It has been my distinct honor to have been with you here today. Rest assured our America, this experiment in democracy started over two centuries ago, will forever remain the “land of the free and home of the brave” so long as we never run out of tough young Americans who are willing to look beyond their own self-interest and comfortable lives, and go into the darkest and most dangerous places on earth to hunt down, and kill, those who would do us harm. God Bless America, and….SEMPER FIDELIS!

[silverscreenselect]

Glenn Beck saying Nancy Pelosi is out to ruin America is not.

Glenn Beck frothing at the mouth about the Tides Foundation which results in a nutcase shooting it out with the cops who stop him from shooting up the Tides Foundation offices is destructive.

The tacit approval of Beck's tactics by those in the Republican Party is what's the problem.

One would think that the Republicans would wise up to this from a marketing standpoint, if not an ethical or moral one. But presenting a positive message (as opposed to "Obama is bad") is seomthing the Republicans struggle with. See how well their atempt to foist off Obamacare for the elderly, aka Medicare reform, is doing.

[Flybrick]

I commend the obstinancy exhibited.

I have disdain for the premise.

The key word in your post is "nutcase."

All else is free speech.

[flockofseagulls104]

Glenn Beck saying Nancy Pelosi is out to ruin America is not.

Glenn Beck frothing at the mouth about the Tides Foundation which results in a nutcase shooting it out with the cops who stop him from shooting up the Tides Foundation offices is destructive.

The tacit approval of Beck's tactics by those in the Republican Party is what's the problem.

One would think that the Republicans would wise up to this from a marketing standpoint, if not an ethical or moral one. But presenting a positive message (as opposed to "Obama is bad") is seomthing the Republicans struggle with. See how well their atempt to foist off Obamacare for the elderly, aka Medicare reform, is doing.

SSS, read Flybrick's long post. Then shut the hell up. I am not a Republican, but i will give you an answer in their name, OK?

I approve of what Glenn Beck says, because I know what's in his heart. I deplore and disavow the nutcase who used Beck's name to try and rationalize his insanity. Just as I deplore the nutcase that shot Gabrielle Giffords. And I also deplore people like you that try to use these incidents as a political pointy stick. You are as crazy as the nutcase. Grow up already.

[silverscreenselect]

And I also deplore people like you that try to use these incidents as a political pointy stick. You are as crazy as the nutcase. Grow up already.

You know what's in Glenn Beck's heart, and it's good and you know what's in my heart and it's bad.

At least as far as Beck's concerned (and Olbermann too), I think you have to wonder how much of that is sincerity and how much of it is show like the pro wrestlers trot out.

All I can do is tell you what I believe and it comes from the gut (and from the reactions I heard from a number of other liberals, it was a shared reaction). When I heard Giffords was shot, my first thought was that some nutcase who had fed on some of the right wing rhetoric that's out there in abundance had taken the next step. I knew it had happened before with far lower profile targets that US Congresswomen. I was scared, and I am still somewhat scared that we may lose our elected officials because of sickos and that even more people may decline to seek office and that the hatred is fueled by people who should (and probably do) know better what damage their words cause but continue to spew them out for either political or financial gain.

And my feelings have nothing to do with a desire to make right wingers or Republicans look bad. They are more than capable of looking bad without any help on my part. The politically smart thing to do would be to just let Beck and the others foam off at the mouth while the Republicans continue to kiss up to them until some incident occurs that turns the public off them completely and utterly. But it's not worth people's lives to do that.

You may believe I'm wrong. But you have no business whatsoever telling me I'm saying this out of a desire to score political points.

Grow up already.

[flockofseagulls104]

And I also deplore people like you that try to use these incidents as a political pointy stick. You are as crazy as the nutcase. Grow up already.

You know what's in Glenn Beck's heart, and it's good and you know what's in my heart and it's bad.

At least as far as Beck's concerned (and Olbermann too), I think you have to wonder how much of that is sincerity and how much of it is show like the pro wrestlers trot out.

All I can do is tell you what I believe and it comes from the gut (and from the reactions I heard from a number of other liberals, it was a shared reaction). When I heard Giffords was shot, my first thought was that some nutcase who had fed on some of the right wing rhetoric that's out there in abundance had taken the next step. I knew it had happened before with far lower profile targets that US Congresswomen. I was scared, and I am still somewhat scared that we may lose our elected officials because of sickos and that even more people may decline to seek office and that the hatred is fueled by people who should (and probably do) know better what damage their words cause but continue to spew them out for either political or financial gain.

And my feelings have nothing to do with a desire to make right wingers or Republicans look bad. They are more than capable of looking bad without any help on my part. The politically smart thing to do would be to just let Beck and the others foam off at the mouth while the Republicans continue to kiss up to them until some incident occurs that turns the public off them completely and utterly. But it's not worth people's lives to do that.

You may believe I'm wrong. But you have no business whatsoever telling me I'm saying this out of a desire to score political points.

Grow up already.

Where's your heartfelt indignation against the inflammatory and violent rhetoric that spews out daily from the left? Do you demand apologies from the left? You are very limited in your targets, and you are biggoted, which your reaction to the Giffords shooting shows. I didn't see you demand apologies from the people who kneejerkingly blamed that shooting on Palin or the right in general. I believe you owe Beck an apology.
I will not defend Beck, not because I believe he did nothing wrong, which I do, but because I totally reject your premise.
The biggest mistake a lot of Republicans and/or Conservatives do is enter arguments with their opponents where the opponents define the premises of the debate. I reject your premise on this argument, as I do with most of the things we disagree with.

[franktangredi]

Have there been major incidents of violence inspired by Malloy and any of the other liberals? No.

Have there been major incidents of violence inspired by Beck and the other conservatives? Sadly, yes.

Not that I'm asking for examples but this is easily explained.

The people who disagree with Malloy or other liberals are not violent or easily driven to violence.

The people who disagree with Beck or Limbaugh or other conservatives (or at least some [this is for Frank, because we are now friends ]) are violent or easily driven to it.

Probably an intelligence thing, IMO.

I'm glad you added that, because I was going to get my machete.

[silverscreenselect]

Where's your heartfelt indignation against the inflammatory and violent rhetoric that spews out daily from the left? Do you demand apologies from the left? You are very limited in your targets, and you are biggoted, which your reaction to the Giffords shooting shows. I didn't see you demand apologies from the people who kneejerkingly blamed that shooting on Palin or the right in general. I believe you owe Beck an apology.
I will not defend Beck, not because I believe he did nothing wrong, which I do, but because I totally reject your premise.
The biggest mistake a lot of Republicans and/or Conservatives do is enter arguments with their opponents where the opponents define the premises of the debate. I reject your premise on this argument, as I do with most of the things we disagree with.

I don't think we'll ever get an accurate measure of how much "inflammatory rhetoric" comes from the left vs. the right. I do know that several shooters have admitted (or had witnesses state on the record to the effect that) they were influenced by Beck and other right wingers. I have yet to see any evidence of anything that serious being caused by left wingers. We get a number of cases of vandalism, petty assault, and silly pranks that somehow the right tries to equate with multiple murders.

I'm not expecting an apology from Beck. He knows where he gets his money from. I'm not looking for apologies from anyone. Frankly, I'd guess that about 99% of politically motivated apologies are completely insincere anyway. I'm hoping people will tone down the rhetoric, but as people like you and Flybrick demonstrate, you don't even seem to believe there is a problem. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it's just a giant blind spot in the modern conservative psyche which shows itself at times most inopportune to their own cause. The more you tie yourself to people like Beck, the more damage you do to your cause.