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Beebs52 · #101 Post by **Beebs52** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:20 pm

No one has recently addressed the question "is insurance a right?" which is sort of at the core of this. I don't think it is.

Bob Juch · #102 Post by **Bob Juch** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:22 pm

Beebs52 wrote:No one has recently addressed the question "is insurance a right?" which is sort of at the core of this. I don't think it is.

In most developed countries healthcare is now a right. Having insurance as a right in the U.S. is sort of a compromise.

Beebs52 · #103 Post by **Beebs52** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:29 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:No one has recently addressed the question "is insurance a right?" which is sort of at the core of this. I don't think it is.
In most developed countries healthcare is now a right. Having insurance as a right in the U.S. is sort of a compromise.

I'm talking about if you actually feel it's a right. What about water? Or electricity? Or a mortgage?

DevilKitty100 · #104 Post by **DevilKitty100** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:50 pm

littlebeast13 wrote:
DevilKitty100 wrote:
BassPlayingSugarplum wrote:

I don't (can't) eat wheat, but my tax dollars go to subsidize it. If we only paid for what we used, we'd have no bridges, no airports, etc. Paying for things you don't use -- and even things you don't agree with -- is called democracy.

What I really don't understand is why people on here can't disagree with each other's opinions without getting nasty. If people can't play be polite to each other on a game show message board, what chance does Congress have?
Oh, gosh! This discussion is downright civilized.......well, except for that rabble rousing LB.

Truly......you should have been around "back in the day." Bloodletting was a sport and no prisoners were taken. Actually, internal democracy is somewhat at work here as the core folks of this board have loosely agreed (over the years) on the rules of disagreement and functions somewhat reasonably.

I cuss a lot, it's in my nature....

lb13

LOL......it will probably take more than a bar of soap to clean up our collective acts.

Love this!

Beebs52 · #105 Post by **Beebs52** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:53 pm

DevilKitty100 wrote:
littlebeast13 wrote:
DevilKitty100 wrote:
Oh, gosh! This discussion is downright civilized.......well, except for that rabble rousing LB.

I haven't cussed yet. You know something is wrong with that.

Truly......you should have been around "back in the day." Bloodletting was a sport and no prisoners were taken. Actually, internal democracy is somewhat at work here as the core folks of this board have loosely agreed (over the years) on the rules of disagreement and functions somewhat reasonably.

I cuss a lot, it's in my nature....

lb13
LOL......it will probably take more than a bar of soap to clean up our collective acts.

Love this!

Beebs52 · #106 Post by **Beebs52** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:56 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
DevilKitty100 wrote:
littlebeast13 wrote:

I cuss a lot, it's in my nature....

lb13
LOL......it will probably take more than a bar of soap to clean up our collective acts.

Love this!

Apparently. I'm incapable of quoting once again, but, to repeat, I haven't cussed yet. Something wrong with that...

Beebs52 · #107 Post by **Beebs52** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:57 pm

DevilKitty100 wrote:
littlebeast13 wrote:
DevilKitty100 wrote:
Oh, gosh! This discussion is downright civilized.......well, except for that rabble rousing LB.

I haven't cussed yet. You know something is wrong with that.

Truly......you should have been around "back in the day." Bloodletting was a sport and no prisoners were taken. Actually, internal democracy is somewhat at work here as the core folks of this board have loosely agreed (over the years) on the rules of disagreement and functions somewhat reasonably.

I cuss a lot, it's in my nature....

lb13
LOL......it will probably take more than a bar of soap to clean up our collective acts.

Love this!

Bob Juch · #108 Post by **Bob Juch** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:58 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:No one has recently addressed the question "is insurance a right?" which is sort of at the core of this. I don't think it is.
In most developed countries healthcare is now a right. Having insurance as a right in the U.S. is sort of a compromise.
I'm talking about if you actually feel it's a right. What about water? Or electricity? Or a mortgage?

Yes, ERs can't turn people away even now. Universal insurance should help control that cost. I also feel housing with water and electricity is a basic right. Not a mortgage however.

BackInTex · #109 Post by **BackInTex** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:23 pm

Bob Juch wrote: I also feel housing with water and electricity is a basic right. Not a mortgage however.

So getting to use the building is a right, but not a right to 'get to' pay for it.

Hmmm......

Beebs52 · #110 Post by **Beebs52** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:44 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:
Bob Juch wrote: In most developed countries healthcare is now a right. Having insurance as a right in the U.S. is sort of a compromise.
I'm talking about if you actually feel it's a right. What about water? Or electricity? Or a mortgage?
Yes, ERs can't turn people away even now. Universal insurance should help control that cost. I also feel housing with water and electricity is a basic right. Not a mortgage however.

What Bit said, but just because ers can't turn people away isn't YOU answering the question. And, why are water and electricity rights? Who pays?

Bob Juch · #111 Post by **Bob Juch** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:48 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
Beebs52 wrote: I'm talking about if you actually feel it's a right. What about water? Or electricity? Or a mortgage?
Yes, ERs can't turn people away even now. Universal insurance should help control that cost. I also feel housing with water and electricity is a basic right. Not a mortgage however.
What Bit said, but just because ers can't turn people away isn't YOU answering the question. And, why are water and electricity rights? Who pays?

The rest of us pay. In "underdeveloped" countries the poor steal water and electricity for their illegaly contructed shanties. In "developed" counties the governments control it better.

Beebs52 · #112 Post by **Beebs52** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:53 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:
Bob Juch wrote: Yes, ERs can't turn people away even now. Universal insurance should help control that cost. I also feel housing with water and electricity is a basic right. Not a mortgage however.
What Bit said, but just because ers can't turn people away isn't YOU answering the question. And, why are water and electricity rights? Who pays?
The rest of us pay. In "underdeveloped" countries the poor steal water and electricity for their illegaly contructed shanties. In "developed" counties the governments control it better.

I'm not talking about pragmatism. I'm talking about rights. You continue to NOT answer the question.

Bob Juch · #113 Post by **Bob Juch** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:34 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
Beebs52 wrote: What Bit said, but just because ers can't turn people away isn't YOU answering the question. And, why are water and electricity rights? Who pays?
The rest of us pay. In "underdeveloped" countries the poor steal water and electricity for their illegaly contructed shanties. In "developed" counties the governments control it better.
I'm not talking about pragmatism. I'm talking about rights. You continue to NOT answer the question.

No, you continue to ignore my answer.

silverscreenselect · #114 Post by **silverscreenselect** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:15 am

BackInTex wrote:
Bob Juch wrote: I also feel housing with water and electricity is a basic right. Not a mortgage however.
So getting to use the building is a right, but not a right to 'get to' pay for it.

Hmmm......

The "right" to life is somewhat meaningless without the "right" to the necessities to sustain life. If the poor have no right to these basics, then why do those not so poor have the right to own property? There are some people who do not respect property rights, but in large part, our society exists today because most people recognize and agree to recognize those rights. Otherwise, you wouldn't get much sleep at night waiting for someone to take your property away from you.

What separates us from the law of the jungle is the largely unwritten social contract we have with each other under which the lower class "agrees" to respect the upper class' property rights in exchange for at some level the necessities to exist. The French Revolution is a good example of what happens when that contract breaks down.

macrae1234 · #115 Post by **macrae1234** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:53 am

No one has recently addressed the question "is insurance a right?" which is sort of at the core of this. I don't think it is.

Insurance is not a right however in our society we do not turn our back on the infirm or pregnant regardless of their ability to pay. Society pays for this. All free or subsidized insurance does is make the process more cost effective. Going to a clinic at one tenth the cost of emergency. Providing access to medication and regular physician visits/specialists if necessary to maintain proper health.

silverscreenselect · #116 Post by **silverscreenselect** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:42 am

macrae1234 wrote:
No one has recently addressed the question "is insurance a right?" which is sort of at the core of this. I don't think it is.
Insurance is not a right however in our society we do not turn our back on the infirm or pregnant regardless of their ability to pay.

Insurance isn't a right; it's a mechanism. Basic healthcare that we have the ability to provide is a right in today's society that is recognized by virtually every modernized Western country. Insurance is a very imperfect mechanism for paying for that right as Obamacare illustrates, which should be no surprise since Obamacare is an updated version of a Republican proposal from 20 years ago. Obamacare has exacerbated some of the existing flaws in the system, but, make no mistake, the ship was rapidly taking on water and Obamacare merely hastened the process.

The problem has always been rising health care costs, which are another way of saying that doctors and hospitals are making too much money. Now, normally, the free market can control to some extent how much money someone makes. If I don't like the price of the latest I-phone, I don't buy one. Enough people don't buy one and Apple makes less money. But we have few choices with health care. If I don't like the cost of heart surgery, I suffer or die. That basic inequality in bargaining power is the main reason health care costs have gone up higher than anything else in this country.

Obamacare has worsened this dynamic by removing whatever incentive insurers may have had to contest it. Before, if Aetna (my insurer) was able to negotiate a hospital downward, Aetna made more profit. Now, with the earnings cap, Aetna gets no benefit, and, in fact, loses money by doing so. The only way they have to make more money is to allow more claims, which results in higher premiums.

The problem with the "cancellations" (which more properly should be termed "nonrenewals") is an illustration. Companies drop coverage and raise rates all the time. Even without Obamacare, the rates on those existing policies was going to go up and a number of them were going to be nonrenewed anyway since companies continue to pull the plug on nonprofitable policies. Obamacare just gave them cover to lay the blame for their business decisions on Obamacare.

The problems with Obamacare are never going to fixed in today's political climate in which Democrats line up en masse to protect the President's back and Republicans are willing to consider nothing other than repeal or delay. At some point, someone will have to come to their senses and start working on solutions. Republicans offer nothing. Democrats don't want to change a thing. That's not going to cut it in the long run.

themanintheseersuckersuit · #117 Post by **themanintheseersuckersuit** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:01 am

This all an un intended consequence of the 16th Amendment and WWII price controls or bad luck.

elwoodblues · #118 Post by **elwoodblues** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:02 am

No one should go broke just because they got sick.

BackInTex · #119 Post by **BackInTex** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:21 am

elwoodblues wrote:No one should go broke just because they got sick.

When should someone go broke?

BackInTex · #120 Post by **BackInTex** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:27 am

silverscreenselect wrote:Obamacare is an updated version of a Republican proposal from 20 years ago.

You keep saying that like its a fact. It is not. Obamacare is an abomination of a flawed proposal.

silverscreenselect wrote: If I don't like the cost of heart surgery, I suffer or die.

Or perhaps you could have lived your life taking better care of your heart. The overwhelming majority of heart surgeries are the result of over eating, under exercising, smoking, or other lifestyle choices.

Besides, we are not built to live forever. Nor are we built to all last the exact same amount of time. Accept that reality. Some people will live longer than others (or as you prefer to say, some people will die before others). Fair? Fairness shouldn't even be a consideration.

flockofseagulls104 · #121 Post by **flockofseagulls104** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:09 am

Everytime I hear the new mantra that 'Healthcare is a right' it makes me cringe.

IT IS NOT A RIGHT. Do you have any idea, or clue, what 'Healthcare is a right' means in reality. Do you ever think of that?

If I have a right to healthcare, that means that my doctor, whether I choose him or her or he or she is assigned to me, is at my beck and call any time they are needed by me. The same is true of any specialists, medical devices or services and whatever. IT IS MY RIGHT! Every person in this country has a 'right' to whatever is determined to be their healthcare needs. (Who decides that?).

So anyone who works in the healthcare field is now required to provide their expertise and time based on whatever the needs are determined to be (again: by WHO?).

Anyone who provides healthcare services or creates or manufactures healthcare related devices are provided to produce them on demand, regardless of the cost to them. BECAUSE IT'S MY RIGHT.

Doctors will no longer work for themselves, or their patients. They will work at the beck and call of whomever decides where and when they are needed, regardless of the cost or time. Of course we will not have enough supply of anything to meet the demand. So someone will have to decide what goes where. And of course it will end up being the same people who have created the mess we have already.

"Healthcare is a right" is ridiculous.

Here's a better explanation than what I can express: http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?id=13873

elwoodblues · #122 Post by **elwoodblues** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:14 am

BackInTex wrote:
elwoodblues wrote:No one should go broke just because they got sick.
When should someone go broke?

If at all then only if they have made extremely poor choices for themselves. In some cases poor health is a result of poor choices, but not always.

silverscreenselect · #123 Post by **silverscreenselect** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:28 am

BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:Obamacare is an updated version of a Republican proposal from 20 years ago.
You keep saying that like its a fact. It is not. Obamacare is an abomination of a flawed proposal.

Well, here's a well respected source (that's not partisan) that compares Obamacare to the 1993 Republican plan. As you can see, the similarities are substantial..

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/graphic ... rison.aspx

Obamacare became bad in the eyes of Republicans when the name Obama was attached to it instead of the Republican sponsors from 1993.

silverscreenselect · #124 Post by **silverscreenselect** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:31 am

BackInTex wrote:
Besides, we are not built to live forever. Nor are we built to all last the exact same amount of time. Accept that reality. Some people will live longer than others (or as you prefer to say, some people will die before others). Fair? Fairness shouldn't even be a consideration.

Why don't you send in an audition tape to appear on Fox News? I'd bet all the Bored liberals would chip in to fly you up there so that you can let more middle-of-the-road Americans get a glimpse into the psyche of the current Republican party.

silverscreenselect · #125 Post by **silverscreenselect** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:41 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote: IT IS NOT A RIGHT. Do you have any idea, or clue, what 'Healthcare is a right' means in reality. Do you ever think of that?

If I have a right to healthcare, that means that my doctor, whether I choose him or her or he or she is assigned to me, is at my beck and call any time they are needed by me.

You are confusing the difference between the right to a basic level of service and the ability to demand concierge-type service. In most Westernized countries, the wealthy have ways at their disposal to get far better medical treatment (at a cost) than the government provides.

And I have a question for you. Who determines what rights people have? You? The Tea Party? Ayn Rand? And don't say the Constitution or the Founding Fathers, because they specifically included the Ninth Amendment as an acknowledgement that the enumeration of rights contained in the Constitution was not intended to be exclusive.

The reason we have many of the rights we do today is because the English nobles in 1215 held a knife to the throat (figuratively) of King John and forced him to agree to the Magna Carta. The reason we have a lot of other rights is because our Founding Fathers by force broke away from England and agreed to the Constitution. The reason we have a number of other rights is that by force, the United States put down an armed revolt which led to the adoption of the 14th Amendment.

WWTBAM Bored

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