If you think this is their prime motivation, you have bought into the Kool Aid.Flybrick wrote:"If only the U.S. and the West weren't here to keep us down, WE'd be the ones with the BMWs and lattes."
It has EVERYTHING to do with our way of life. They don't want us to have it. Envy may or may not be the right concept I was trying to articulate, but the fact is that al Qeada and related ideology does not want a Western way of life to exist.Jeemie wrote:If you think this is their prime motivation, you have bought into the Kool Aid.Flybrick wrote:"If only the U.S. and the West weren't here to keep us down, WE'd be the ones with the BMWs and lattes."
Consider that most of the 19 hijackers were themselves member of fairly well-off families.
It has ZIP to do with "envying our way of life".
Flybrick wrote: I'll let Flock speak for himself, but there is a sizable segment, primarily composed of Muslim fanatics (actually, a few smart ones that promise untold rewards to a whole bunch of young, ignorant (as in no education not a perjorative) recruits who are seeking a quick way to a higher standard of living.
"If only the U.S. and the West weren't here to keep us down, WE'd be the ones with the BMWs and lattes."
Despite a millenia showing a of lack of success.
But - we got the lattes (at least the main ingredient in the lattes) from them:Flybrick wrote:"If only the U.S. and the West weren't here to keep us down, WE'd be the ones with the BMWs and lattes."
From what I've been able to gather, they are not opposed to our way of life per se. They are opposed to us being over there, i.e., being in the Middle East.Flybrick wrote:It has EVERYTHING to do with our way of life. They don't want us to have it. Envy may or may not be the right concept I was trying to articulate, but the fact is that al Qeada and related ideology does not want a Western way of life to exist.
The ones moving to the West are not the ones who support Bin Laden.themanintheseersuckersuit wrote:So why do they keep moving to the West?
So were was 9/11 planned?silverscreenselect wrote:The ones moving to the West are not the ones who support Bin Laden.themanintheseersuckersuit wrote:So why do they keep moving to the West?
This is why our invasion of Iraq was counterproductive in dealing with terrorism. We reinforced Bin Laden's theme that the US is meddling in Middle Eastern affairs.
On November 1, 1998, future-hijackers Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, and Ramzi bin al-Shibh moved into a three-room apartment (two bedrooms, one living room, one kitchen) together on Marienstrasse. Here they formed the secretive Hamburg cell, which also included other minor participants in the 9/11 plot. They met together three or four times a week to discuss their anti-American and anti-Israeli views, and to decide how best to fight for their cause.
As late as 1999, the four core members of the group had intended to wage jihad in Chechnya, where Islamic jihadists were then and are now rebelling against the parent country of Russia. The 9/11 Commission Report notes in Chapter 5 that "according to bin al-Shibh [who is now in U.S. custody], a chance meeting on a train in Germany caused the group to travel to Afghanistan instead. An individual named Khalid al Masri (or Khalid al-Masri) approached bin al-Shibh and Shehhi (because they were Arabs with beards, bin al-Shibh thinks) and struck up a conversation about jihad in Chechnya. When they later called Masri and expressed interest in going to Chechnya, he told them to contact Abu Musab in Duisburg, Germany. Abu Musab turned out to be Mohamedou Ould Slahi, a significant al-Qaeda operative who, even then, was well known to U.S. and German intelligence, though neither government apparently knew he was operating in Germany in late 1999."
I think you know what SSS meant.themanintheseersuckersuit wrote:So were was 9/11 planned?silverscreenselect wrote:The ones moving to the West are not the ones who support Bin Laden.themanintheseersuckersuit wrote:So why do they keep moving to the West?
This is why our invasion of Iraq was counterproductive in dealing with terrorism. We reinforced Bin Laden's theme that the US is meddling in Middle Eastern affairs.
On November 1, 1998, future-hijackers Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, and Ramzi bin al-Shibh moved into a three-room apartment (two bedrooms, one living room, one kitchen) together on Marienstrasse. Here they formed the secretive Hamburg cell, which also included other minor participants in the 9/11 plot. They met together three or four times a week to discuss their anti-American and anti-Israeli views, and to decide how best to fight for their cause.
As late as 1999, the four core members of the group had intended to wage jihad in Chechnya, where Islamic jihadists were then and are now rebelling against the parent country of Russia. The 9/11 Commission Report notes in Chapter 5 that "according to bin al-Shibh [who is now in U.S. custody], a chance meeting on a train in Germany caused the group to travel to Afghanistan instead. An individual named Khalid al Masri (or Khalid al-Masri) approached bin al-Shibh and Shehhi (because they were Arabs with beards, bin al-Shibh thinks) and struck up a conversation about jihad in Chechnya. When they later called Masri and expressed interest in going to Chechnya, he told them to contact Abu Musab in Duisburg, Germany. Abu Musab turned out to be Mohamedou Ould Slahi, a significant al-Qaeda operative who, even then, was well known to U.S. and German intelligence, though neither government apparently knew he was operating in Germany in late 1999."
Apparently, we asked to be attacked and it's our fault that bin Laden did it.flockofseagulls104 wrote:I had thought that the post I made thats being discussed would be very uncontroversial by my standards to the people who usually disparage me.
Seeing the comments to that post sadden me. It shows me even more how the world has changed for the worse because of this man and others who follow him.
Bin Laden's motivation had nothing to do with scanty clothing, or US (or Western) decadence, capitalism, wealth, or perceived immorality. It had everything to do with our being in the Middle East and interfering with what he perceived as their internal affairs.Flybrick wrote:Apparently, we asked to be attacked and it's our fault that bin Laden did it.flockofseagulls104 wrote:I had thought that the post I made thats being discussed would be very uncontroversial by my standards to the people who usually disparage me.
Seeing the comments to that post sadden me. It shows me even more how the world has changed for the worse because of this man and others who follow him.
That'll teach America to wear scanty clothing...
Jump to ConclusionsFlybrick wrote:Apparently, we asked to be attacked and it's our fault that bin Laden did it.flockofseagulls104 wrote:I had thought that the post I made thats being discussed would be very uncontroversial by my standards to the people who usually disparage me.
Seeing the comments to that post sadden me. It shows me even more how the world has changed for the worse because of this man and others who follow him.
That'll teach America to wear scanty clothing...
More importantly, they don't profile serial killers because they "blame the serial killer's victims".silverscreenselect wrote:The FBI profiles serial killers, not out of some sense of admiration, sympathy, or approval, but because the more they know about the killer's mind, what he's thinking and why, the easier it becomes to find him and stop him.
He even said this.silverscreenselect wrote:Bin Laden's motivation had nothing to do with scanty clothing, or US (or Western) decadence, capitalism, wealth, or perceived immorality. It had everything to do with our being in the Middle East and interfering with what he perceived as their internal affairs.
But grandma and little sister must be subjected to searches at the airport because it's unthinkable that we profile terrorists.silverscreenselect wrote:Bin Laden's motivation had nothing to do with scanty clothing, or US (or Western) decadence, capitalism, wealth, or perceived immorality. It had everything to do with our being in the Middle East and interfering with what he perceived as their internal affairs.Flybrick wrote:Apparently, we asked to be attacked and it's our fault that bin Laden did it.flockofseagulls104 wrote:I had thought that the post I made thats being discussed would be very uncontroversial by my standards to the people who usually disparage me.
Seeing the comments to that post sadden me. It shows me even more how the world has changed for the worse because of this man and others who follow him.
That'll teach America to wear scanty clothing...
We've spent the last decade paying for our leaders' strategic mistakes which were caused in no small part by their failure to understand the nature and motivation of the enemy and our insistence on lumping all "bad guy" Moslems together under some general label like "Islamofascism." Saddam, Qadaffi, Mubarak and other secular strongmen are (or were) evil, but their motivation and the threats they posed were quite different from the Iranians, Taliban, and Al Qaeda. Unless we understand the motivation of our enemies, their strengths, and their weaknesses, we are at a disadvantage in fighting them, no matter how superior of weaponry and how much better trained our troops are.
The FBI profiles serial killers, not out of some sense of admiration, sympathy, or approval, but because the more they know about the killer's mind, what he's thinking and why, the easier it becomes to find him and stop him.
I don't think anyone is against profiling terrorists. the problem is, they refuse to stand in the terrorist line. So we have to profile Muslims.flockofseagulls104 wrote: But grandma and little sister must be subjected to searches at the airport because it's unthinkable that we profile terrorists.
And BJ is all jubilant for Obama because he used tactics that BJ would denounce if Bush did it (which I applaud him for), and found Bin Laden using intelligence gathered by people he'd like to throw in jail for using 'torture'.
My mind is spinning.
Yeah, I know. I accidentally got in that terrorist line at the airport once. Boy was it a hassle.BackInTex wrote:I don't think anyone is against profiling terrorists. the problem is, they refuse to stand in the terrorist line. So we have to profile Muslims.flockofseagulls104 wrote: But grandma and little sister must be subjected to searches at the airport because it's unthinkable that we profile terrorists.
And BJ is all jubilant for Obama because he used tactics that BJ would denounce if Bush did it (which I applaud him for), and found Bin Laden using intelligence gathered by people he'd like to throw in jail for using 'torture'.
My mind is spinning.
Assuming the stories about how we gathered the intelligence on bin Laden are accurate (and that's a big assumption to make), the key information was gathered well after the detainees were locked away in Gitmo and waterboarded. It was gathered using more conventional techniques.flockofseagulls104 wrote: And BJ is all jubilant for Obama because he used tactics that BJ would denounce if Bush did it (which I applaud him for), and found Bin Laden using intelligence gathered by people he'd like to throw in jail for using 'torture'.
My mind is spinning.
It was gathered using more conventional techniques.
Yes, the 'Pretty Please with Sugar on Top' method is one of the more effective ones authorized by the Obama administrationIt was gathered using more conventional techniques.
Somehow, every police agency in the United States, from the FBI to the smallest podunk police department, gets actionable intelligence from criminals without either torturing them or saying "pretty please." The intelligence gathering in this case was apparently done by the military. That intelligence gathering would have been easier, more timely, and more productive if we had spent more time looking for bin Laden and other top Al Qaeda leaders in 2001 and the years immediately following rather than failing to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.flockofseagulls104 wrote:Yes, the 'Pretty Please with Sugar on Top' method is one of the more effective ones authorized by the Obama administrationIt was gathered using more conventional techniques.
