Mail from Obama

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silverscreenselect
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Re: Mail from Obama

#26 Post by silverscreenselect » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:13 am

15QuestionsAway wrote:I'm calling you out, SSS. This guilt by association meme you're fixated on is a real problem. Honestly, when I read your posts, sometimes I think you've got a problem with Obama being Teh Black. I know you're hurt that Hillary lost, but you have to deal with it.

McCain's "character and integrity" is a chimera. The Straight Talk Express has turned into the Double Talk Express.

His policies are anathema to Democrats. If you truly support Democratic policies and objectives, a vote for McCain would just be bitter and spiteful. Do your research.
That's a typical argument from an Obama supporter. If you don't like him, you're a racist. That guilt trip ploy worked well enough in the primary to win the Democratic nomination (there's a lot of white liberal guilt out there), but it won't work in the general election, and a lot of people are starting to notice how Obama likes to turn arguments against him for any reason into racial ones.

I know that McCain has done some flip flops in the past. All politicians have, and their policies and feelings evolve over the years. At least McCain has a decades-long record of public service so that people can gauge his judgment and point of view and make a decision based on that.

Obama is a will-of-the-wisp, someone who has worked hard to avoid stances on issues, instead relying on his "hope and change" image. He hopes to be all things to all people. Add to that an extreme lack of experience in government and politics and there's a lot that should worry people.

Obama's entire campaign has been about showing as little as he can about himself, then when things go bad, obfuscate, deny and then dump. The campaign finance issue is illustrative. On Tuesday, Obama's support for campaign finance was one of the campaign bullet points on his web site. By Friday, it had disappeared, as he tries to explain he never really meant it. Similarly, Wright and Pfleger disappear from their positions on his spiritual council, as if they never existed. This is strikingly similar to the news washing that periodically occurred in 1984, as all references to discredited past events were replaced by new, approved versions of what happened.

The bad apples from Obama's past: Rezko, Ayers, Wright, Pfleger and others, aren't neighbors, casual acquaintances or one-time donors to his campaigns. They are people who have been major influences in Obama's life, who worked with him for years, who helped serve as his religious or political mentors. When you have a candidate about whom you know as little as Obama, it makes sense to look past his campaign pitch and into his record and his background. And Obama's record is nearly devoid of substance (his last term in the state Senate, party leaders shoehorned him into "sponsorship" positions on a number of bills to pad his resume). So it becomes more important to look at his background.

It's one thing to change your position over a period of years. In fact, in some cases such as the energy crisis, the realities of the situation are quite different now than they were six or seven years ago. It's another to change from week to week or even from day to day as Obama has on the campaign trail. Do we really want a president who will decide on foreign policy by floating trial balloons about what he might do and then gauge public reaction and change his mind a couple of days later?

Progressives can and should be worried about Obama's shifting stance on the issues, his tendency to take the easy way out and his lack of specifics. Despite his rhetoric, he has played to the big money interests with the best of them (as his vote on the energy bill demonstrated). Keep in mind that as President, McCain will face a Democratic House and Senate that with anywhere from two to eight more Democratic Senators and ten to twenty more House members. They can keep a check on what he might propose in the way of Supreme Court justices or economic policies. Democrats will be hard pressed to oppose any Obama appointments or initiatives.

Every single pro-Obama argument I hear boils down to one or more of a combination of these arguments.

1) If you don't vote for Obama, you're a racist.
2) If you don't vote for Obama, you're a bitter Hillary supporter letting cutting off your nose to spite your face.
3) Hope and change, hope and change.
4) John McCain is a very bad person who will do very bad things.

No reasoned, factually supportable arguments about what Obama actually can or will do once elected. And that is it for a candidate who is the least experienced of any major party candidate in many years and about whose background we know the least.

By the way, Georgia had a presidential primary in February, but, like many states, the primaries for other offices, including Senate, Congress and state offices, are held later, in this case in July. In fact, the official qualifying period for Georgia elections wasn't until May.

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PlacentiaSoccerMom
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Re: Mail from Obama

#27 Post by PlacentiaSoccerMom » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:18 am

silverscreenselect wrote:[
That's a typical argument from an Obama supporter. If you don't like him, you're a racist. That guilt trip ploy worked well enough in the primary to win the Democratic nomination (there's a lot of white liberal guilt out there), but it won't work in the general election, and a lot of people are starting to notice how Obama likes to turn arguments against him for any reason into racial ones.
Every time the racism issue comes up, I think about Avenue Q.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9CSnlb-ymA

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15QuestionsAway
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Re: Mail from Obama

#28 Post by 15QuestionsAway » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:45 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:(blather)
Face facts. You hold Obama to a different standard than McCain. If you want to remain spiteful and bitter that Hillary didn't win, that's your perogative. What will you do when she starts campaigning with him? Will your head explode?

If you support progressive policies, you'll vote for Obama. Otherwise, you're voting for another four years of the catastrofuck we've been suffering under for the last eight.

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#29 Post by hf_jai » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:18 pm

sss wrote:Obama is a will-of-the-wisp, someone who has worked hard to avoid stances on issues, instead relying on his "hope and change" image. He hopes to be all things to all people.
You learn to play the W.O.R.M. game after every major speech, debate or press conference: What Obama Really Meant.
15Qs wrote:Face facts. You hold Obama to a different standard than McCain.
Can't speak for sss, but I know I do. As Democrats, we should be able to do that.

You know, you can castigate us as racists, bitter, or just plain foolish, but the fact you need to face is that Obama must EARN our votes, and those of people like us. So far he hasn't, and he doesn't seem to be trying.

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#30 Post by 15QuestionsAway » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:31 pm

hf_jai wrote: (me) Face facts. You hold Obama to a different standard than McCain. (/me)

Can't speak for sss, but I know I do. As Democrats, we should be able to do that.

You know, you can castigate us as racists, bitter, or just plain foolish, but the fact you need to face is that Obama must EARN our votes, and those of people like us. So far he hasn't, and he doesn't seem to be trying.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "people like us". Do you mean Hillary supporters?

I'm not necessarily saying you're racist, bitter or foolish. Shortsighted may be a better description, if indeed you support the policies that Hillary espouses. As I said when I first replied to SSS, Hillary lost my primary vote during her campaign. It doesn't mean I wouldn't have voted for her in the general election, because I understand what's at stake.

As far as earning your vote, I can understand that. I'm not sure what it is you need to hear, but there's all kinds of Web resources to research the candidates, starting with their own web sites.

I heard a story about someone who was torn about who to vote for in the Democratic primary, so he called up his local office for both the Obama and Clinton campaigns. He asked both why he should vote for their candidate. The Obama representative gave some reasons and offered to transfer him to her supervisor if he needed to hear more. The Clinton representative took down his name and number and said someone would call him back. No one ever did. Needless to say, this particular voter chose Obama.

The story had a credible source, but even if it's apocryphal, you probably could call your local Obama office and ask the question. Might make for a fun post to the bored.

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#31 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:43 am

15QuestionsAway wrote:
hf_jai wrote: (me) Face facts. You hold Obama to a different standard than McCain. (/me)

Can't speak for sss, but I know I do. As Democrats, we should be able to do that.

You know, you can castigate us as racists, bitter, or just plain foolish, but the fact you need to face is that Obama must EARN our votes, and those of people like us. So far he hasn't, and he doesn't seem to be trying.
I heard a story about someone who was torn about who to vote for in the Democratic primary, so he called up his local office for both the Obama and Clinton campaigns. He asked both why he should vote for their candidate. The Obama representative gave some reasons and offered to transfer him to her supervisor if he needed to hear more. The Clinton representative took down his name and number and said someone would call him back. No one ever did. Needless to say, this particular voter chose Obama.
There's a well known video that's making the rounds yet again when Chris Matthews of MSNBC asked the Obama surrogate during one of the primaries to name one single accomplishment of Obama's and the man, who was a Texas state senator or representative, couldn't. Sean Hannity regularly asks Obama supporters the same thing and gets the same result.

You could have just as much fun asking people to name Obama's policy positions. Of course, these seem to change every few days or so.

Obama won because Clinton's organization in the early part of the campaign was poorly run and because they took the caucus states far more seriously than Clinton did. Frankly, their tactics at some of the caucuses were deplorable, including intimidation of party officials and opposing delegates, in some cases going to outright fraud.

But no matter how you slice it, the fact is that in the later elections, once voters had a better idea of who Obama was and, more important, that he wasn't the "chosen one," his voting totals dropped, even though he tallied over 90% of the black vote in state after state.

The same thing's going to happen in the general election. There's a lot of low information voters out there whose initial view of Obama, based on the hope and change mantra, is positive. That will change as they get to know him better. And the Republicans won't be campaigning with one hand tied behind their back the way Hillary was. Every time she tried to question Obama's qualifications or his background, his supporters objected that she was either being "racist" or engaging in "Republican/Rovian campaigning" and she backed off.

I do consider myself progressive, and I find Obama to be a candidate whose rhetoric is constantly changing yet whose actual positions as evidenced by his votes (real votes, not "present" votes or missed votes), does not give me reason to feel very confident that he will actively pursue a progressive agenda once in office.

It's worthwhile to reconsider the origin of the phrase "yellow dog" Democrat, which describes someone so loyal that were the party to nominate a yellow dog for office, he (or she) would support the dog. It originated during the 1900 Kentucky governor's race, during which the Democratic candidate for governor had an extremely poor reputation. A number of prominent Democrats in the state openly opposed their own candidate, William Goebel (who was assassinated shortly after taking office, the only state governor to be assassinated while in office).

During a speech, one of the anti-Goebel Democrats was asked by a heckler about whether he really meant what he said when he made the "yellow dog" comment. The reply was that he meant it, that he would support a yellow dog for political office as a Democrat, but lower than that he wouldn't go.

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