Pennsylvania votes

[BackInTex]

You have to ask, what is the purpose of the signature and the date?

If the signature is to ensure the person filing the ballot is legitimate, even to the extent to rule it out if determined to be forged or a duplicate, then a missing sign is not immaterial (assuming it is material to determine the validity of the ballot)

If the date is to ensue the ballot was cast within the election period then a missing date is not immaterial, if casting ballots outside the election dates deems a ballot invalid.

[Bob78164]

You have to ask, what is the purpose of the signature and the date?

If the signature is to ensure the person filing the ballot is legitimate, even to the extent to rule it out if determined to be forged or a duplicate, then a missing sign is not immaterial (assuming it is material to determine the validity of the ballot)

If the date is to ensue the ballot was cast within the election period then a missing date is not immaterial, if casting ballots outside the election dates deems a ballot invalid.

When the ballot arrives on or before Election Day (or is postmarked before Election Day and arrives by the deadline for counting ballots), the missing date IS immaterial. And when the voter later shows up to attest that the ballot really is theirs, again, the missing signature is immaterial.

I'd have more to say about the purpose of these requirements if this thread were in the Political Lounge, but it's not, so I'll leave it at that. --Bob

[Bob Juch]

You have to ask, what is the purpose of the signature and the date?

If the signature is to ensure the person filing the ballot is legitimate, even to the extent to rule it out if determined to be forged or a duplicate, then a missing sign is not immaterial (assuming it is material to determine the validity of the ballot)

If the date is to ensue the ballot was cast within the election period then a missing date is not immaterial, if casting ballots outside the election dates deems a ballot invalid.

I don't know about Pennsylvania, but in Arizona, a ballot with a mismatched signature causes it to be returned for "curing".

[BackInTex]

You have to ask, what is the purpose of the signature and the date?

If the signature is to ensure the person filing the ballot is legitimate, even to the extent to rule it out if determined to be forged or a duplicate, then a missing sign is not immaterial (assuming it is material to determine the validity of the ballot)

If the date is to ensue the ballot was cast within the election period then a missing date is not immaterial, if casting ballots outside the election dates deems a ballot invalid.

When the ballot arrives on or before Election Day (or is postmarked before Election Day and arrives by the deadline for counting ballots), the missing date IS immaterial. And when the voter later shows up to attest that the ballot really is theirs, again, the missing signature is immaterial.

I'd have more to say about the purpose of these requirements if this thread were in the Political Lounge, but it's not, so I'll leave it at that. --Bob

Bob, what is the purpose of the date then?

What if the voter dies on Oct. 20th, without completing the ballot? And the ballot arrives on Election Day (15 days after death) with no date? Or no signature? Or both?

[Bob78164]

You have to ask, what is the purpose of the signature and the date?

If the signature is to ensure the person filing the ballot is legitimate, even to the extent to rule it out if determined to be forged or a duplicate, then a missing sign is not immaterial (assuming it is material to determine the validity of the ballot)

If the date is to ensue the ballot was cast within the election period then a missing date is not immaterial, if casting ballots outside the election dates deems a ballot invalid.

When the ballot arrives on or before Election Day (or is postmarked before Election Day and arrives by the deadline for counting ballots), the missing date IS immaterial. And when the voter later shows up to attest that the ballot really is theirs, again, the missing signature is immaterial.

I'd have more to say about the purpose of these requirements if this thread were in the Political Lounge, but it's not, so I'll leave it at that. --Bob

Bob, what is the purpose of the date then?

What if the voter dies on Oct. 20th, without completing the ballot? And the ballot arrives on Election Day (15 days after death) with no date? Or no signature? Or both?

If there's no signature, the ballot won't be counted and if the voter has died, the defect won't be curable. And since many states (including California) will count a ballot even without a date accompanying the signature, I can only conclude that the purpose of the date is to provide an extra excuse for refusing to cast timely votes cast by valid voters who are simply sloppy with paperwork. A literacy test, of sorts. --Bob

[jarnon]

Bob, what is the purpose of the date then?

I’ll answer if that’s OK since I live in Pennsylvania.

Occasionally fraudsters have been caught when a ballot signature doesn’t match the voter record. I’ve never heard of a missing or wrong date being anything other than a voter error.

Here is what the outer envelope looks like:



The signature and date are part of the voter’s declaration which is a legal document. Since legal documents are customarily signed and dated, I assume that’s why the legislature made that rule.

[jarnon]

What if the voter dies on Oct. 20th, without completing the ballot? And the ballot arrives on Election Day (15 days after death) with no date? Or no signature? Or both?

BiT, you could be a Talmudist with interesting hypothetical cases like this. If a voter filled in the ballot, signed their name, and died before they could write the date or put the ballot in the mail, an honest relative would take it to the election office and explain the situation. A less scrupulous heir would write the date that the dead voter completed the ballot and then mail it.

[Bob Juch]

You have to ask, what is the purpose of the signature and the date?

If the signature is to ensure the person filing the ballot is legitimate, even to the extent to rule it out if determined to be forged or a duplicate, then a missing sign is not immaterial (assuming it is material to determine the validity of the ballot)

If the date is to ensue the ballot was cast within the election period then a missing date is not immaterial, if casting ballots outside the election dates deems a ballot invalid.

When the ballot arrives on or before Election Day (or is postmarked before Election Day and arrives by the deadline for counting ballots), the missing date IS immaterial. And when the voter later shows up to attest that the ballot really is theirs, again, the missing signature is immaterial.

I'd have more to say about the purpose of these requirements if this thread were in the Political Lounge, but it's not, so I'll leave it at that. --Bob

Bob, what is the purpose of the date then?

What if the voter dies on Oct. 20th, without completing the ballot? And the ballot arrives on Election Day (15 days after death) with no date? Or no signature? Or both?

If the signature can't be verified or cured, then the ballot isn't counted. The date is just like most other things that require a signature.

[earendel]

I know there’s been no definitive court ruling on whether ballots with missing or invalid dates should be counted anyway. Local election officials just want clarity. I wish they’d express that in a way that shows more respect for the legal system.

It appears that the Pennsylvania Supreme Court has ruled that ballots with an invalid date should not be counted, a boost to the Republican candidate, who leads by a slim margin (close enough to trigger an automatic recount). Of course in the last election, the Republican argued that such ballots SHOULD be counted.

[jarnon]

I know there’s been no definitive court ruling on whether ballots with missing or invalid dates should be counted anyway. Local election officials just want clarity. I wish they’d express that in a way that shows more respect for the legal system.

It appears that the Pennsylvania Supreme Court has ruled that ballots with an invalid date should not be counted, a boost to the Republican candidate, who leads by a slim margin (close enough to trigger an automatic recount). Of course in the last election, the Republican argued that such ballots SHOULD be counted.

The Casey campaign still hopes they can convince a federal judge that the rule also violates U.S. law.

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court’s decision applies to this election only. I wish the dispute, which has been dragging on for five years, gets settled once and for all.

[jarnon]

“I think we all know that precedent by a court doesn’t matter anymore in this country,” said Bucks County Commissioner Diane Ellis-Marseglia, a Democrat, as she cast a vote Thursday to count certain deficient provisional ballots previously barred by court order, where voters did not sign in one or both necessary boxes.

“People violate laws any time they want,” she said. “So, for me, if I violate this law it’s because I want a court to pay attention. There’s nothing more important than counting votes.”

As you can imagine, this comment drew a lot of heat. Gov. Shapiro said “Any insinuation that our laws can be ignored or do not matter is irresponsible and does damage to faith in our electoral process. It is critical for counties and officials in both parties to respect it with both their rhetoric and their actions.” Republican criticism was much sharper. Ellis-Marseglia apologised for her “inartfully worded statement.”