How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

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How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#1 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:21 pm

A Minnesota man was arrested Wednesday after he allegedly trapped a police officer's arm in his truck window while attempting to flee, and then attacking him with the officer's own rescue hammer, police said. The officer was attempting to stop the suspect, Luke Alvin Oeltjenbruns, 61, after an alleged assault over wearing a mask was reported at a Menards home improvement store in Hutchinson, a city about 60 miles west of Minneapolis.

Hutchinson Police Chief Tom Gifferson told CNN the officer approached the suspect's truck and was standing on a running board on the driver's side when the suspect rolled up the window, trapping the officer's arm, and drove away with the officer clinging to the vehicle, reaching speeds up to 40 mph. The officer used his rescue hammer to break the window to free his own arm, but the suspect took the hammer and began striking the officer in the head with it, Gifferson said.
There's a 15-second video of this incident before the truck drives away with the police officer hanging on.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/us/minne ... index.html

And here's another example involving a white motorist who admitted to having a gun yet was allowed to drive away. Does anyone think the result would have been the same if the driver were black?

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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#2 Post by BackInTex » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:26 am

Not all people, black or white, are shot by police when stopped, when confrontational, when resisting arrest, or otherwise. We can volley examples back and forth all day. Please start posting about police being shot and killed and be sure to give the race of the perps.

By the way

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

I know you'll say black are over represented even those the gross number is lower than whites, but lets be honest, there are more violent interactions with black. If you want to convince me otherwise you'll have a lot of work to do. We can even have the SSS/BIT challenge. You pick 5 predominantly white neighborhoods in any city in the US, I'll pick 5 predominantly black neighborhoods. Then I'll walk through those neighborhoods at 2 AM on a Saturday, and you walk through mine at 2 AM on a Saturday.

If your not up to the travel, I'll limit my choices to the Atlanta area.
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#3 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:51 am

BackInTex wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:26 am
but lets be honest, there are more violent interactions with black.
There are more violent interactions with blacks because they turn violent thanks to police overreaction, and if they are violent, the police have a tendency to start shooting more if the suspects are black or brown. There's a video making the rounds right now of a 13-year-old unarmed boy in Chicago running from the police. When he stops, raises his hands, and turns around slowly, they shoot him in about one second. The justification is that he might have been armed so the police didn't have to wait. What that means is that (a) if the suspect runs, he might be armed and you can shoot him, and (b) if the suspect stops and raises his hands, he might be armed and you can shoot him.

BiT raises a point about which neighborhoods are more dangerous. George Floyd was killed in mid-morning. Daunte Wright was killed in the afternoon. The black lieutenant who was shot with pepper spray; that incident occurred at night but at a quickie mart.

These incidents happen with blacks far more often than with whites. I've been stopped by the police at night a couple of times that I can recall. Both times it was for traffic offenses (expired sticker and rolling stop sign). Neither time did I feel I was in danger. Neither time was I thinking that my every move had to be extremely careful or I might get shot. The expired sticker was a case in which I hadn't gotten around to putting the replacement sticker on and I got off with a warning. But then again, I'm white. I'm not sure how either of those incidents might have turned out if I was black.

I'll ask BiT. Do you think the two incidents I described in my post would have gone down the way they did if the suspects had been black?
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#4 Post by Appa23 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:17 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:51 am
BackInTex wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:26 am
but lets be honest, there are more violent interactions with black.
There are more violent interactions with blacks because they turn violent thanks to police overreaction, and if they are violent, the police have a tendency to start shooting more if the suspects are black or brown. There's a video making the rounds right now of a 13-year-old unarmed boy in Chicago running from the police. When he stops, raises his hands, and turns around slowly, they shoot him in about one second. The justification is that he might have been armed so the police didn't have to wait. What that means is that (a) if the suspect runs, he might be armed and you can shoot him, and (b) if the suspect stops and raises his hands, he might be armed and you can shoot him
I am afraid that we will struggle to make real progress on addressing the causes of police shootings as long as people refuse to tell the truth when they talk about the incidents. Each side colors the story as if either the victim or the officer was "clean" in all of their actions. SSS states that Adam Toledo was an "unarmed boy", at a time when all news services and Toledo's own family states that he had a weapon during the chase. Video evidence shows that he tossed the gun behind a fence just before suddenly turning around.

The real inquiry should be whether the officer should have recognized that there was no longer a gun in Toledo's right hand, or if he fired too quickly (before re-assessing the situation). Instead, you have people arguing the narrative that a rogue, racist cop shot an innocent child who was minding his own business.

The same goes for the other side. For example, I hear people defending Derek Chauvin, without qualifications, by limiting the narrative to George Floyd's drug use and illegal actions, ignoring the real question of how it ever can be proper police procedure to kneel on a handcuffed man's neck area for over nine minutes.

Until the discussion properly recognizes that these events are occurring on a continuum from the left limit of shots are fired amidst a crime to the right limit of purposeful police shooting of an unarmed person who was engaged in no apparent criminal activity, and things are almost never "black and white" or "right or wrong", we will be nowhere. If someone cannot recognize that police will react differently to armed persons depending on whether they see the gun or not, and hence be able to assess the threat, then it is harder to have a reasonable conversation. (If you tell me that you have a gun, but I cannot see it and you start making motions towards hidden areas, that is different than telling me that you have a gun, and I can see the gun and hence can see whether you are making a move for it or not.)

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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#5 Post by BackInTex » Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:13 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:51 am

I'll ask BiT. Do you think the two incidents I described in my post would have gone down the way they did if the suspects had been black?
All other things being equal, time of day, location, information received about the car over dispatch before you were approached and if the suspects behaved as you did, yes, I think they would have gone down just like that.

I'll ask you two questions:

1) how many law enforcement officers, current or former, do you personally know, that you could call up this evening and ask them over to dinner?
2) how may times have you done a ride-a-long and how many of those were during the graveyard shift?
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#6 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:01 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:13 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:51 am

I'll ask BiT. Do you think the two incidents I described in my post would have gone down the way they did if the suspects had been black?
All other things being equal, time of day, location, information received about the car over dispatch before you were approached and if the suspects behaved as you did, yes, I think they would have gone down just like that.

I'll ask you two questions:

1) how many law enforcement officers, current or former, do you personally know, that you could call up this evening and ask them over to dinner?
2) how may times have you done a ride-a-long and how many of those were during the graveyard shift?
I wasn't referring to the two times I was stopped. I was referring to the two incidents I noted in my post, the one in Minnesota in which the cop was dragged from the truck and hit with a hammer by the white suspect, and the one in Ohio when the white man refused to get out of the car repeatedly and finally drove off. Compare that to the incident in which the black army lieutenant in Virginia got hit with pepper spray.

The problem is that police have a shorter fuse with black suspects than with white ones. They are more likely to feel threatened and, in turn, the black suspects are understandably more nervous in the situation. And, no, I haven't had a cop over for dinner or gone on a ridealong.
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#7 Post by BackInTex » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:14 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:01 pm

The problem is that police have a shorter fuse with black suspects than with white ones. They are more likely to feel threatened and, in turn, the black suspects are understandably more nervous in the situation. And, no, I haven't had a cop over for dinner or gone on a ridealong.
Since you don't really know any cops nor have experienced any situations cops are put in, I'll have to assume your assumption on their situational mental states are what you think your situational mental state would be in those situations. Black folks should be glad you're not a cop.
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#8 Post by Bob Juch » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:19 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:01 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:13 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:51 am

I'll ask BiT. Do you think the two incidents I described in my post would have gone down the way they did if the suspects had been black?
All other things being equal, time of day, location, information received about the car over dispatch before you were approached and if the suspects behaved as you did, yes, I think they would have gone down just like that.

I'll ask you two questions:

1) how many law enforcement officers, current or former, do you personally know, that you could call up this evening and ask them over to dinner?
2) how may times have you done a ride-a-long and how many of those were during the graveyard shift?
I wasn't referring to the two times I was stopped. I was referring to the two incidents I noted in my post, the one in Minnesota in which the cop was dragged from the truck and hit with a hammer by the white suspect, and the one in Ohio when the white man refused to get out of the car repeatedly and finally drove off. Compare that to the incident in which the black army lieutenant in Virginia got hit with pepper spray.

The problem is that police have a shorter fuse with black suspects than with white ones. They are more likely to feel threatened and, in turn, the black suspects are understandably more nervous in the situation. And, no, I haven't had a cop over for dinner or gone on a ridealong.
When I was the Assistant Director of the Peninsula Crisis Intervention Center in Palo Alto, California in the 1970s, I had a couple of ride-alongs and numerous dinners in a restaurant with Seargent Al Garcia. We had a good relationship with the police and they brought us clients and also called us out to assist them.
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#9 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:41 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:14 pm
Since you don't really know any cops nor have experienced any situations cops are put in, I'll have to assume your assumption on their situational mental states are what you think your situational mental state would be in those situations. Black folks should be glad you're not a cop.
No, my assumption is based on statistics.

Black people more than three times as likely as white people to be killed during a police encounter

And there are a lot of similar findings to this one.
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#10 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:52 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:14 pm
Since I don't really know any parents of transgender children nor have I experienced any situations these parents are put in, we'll have to assume your interest in allowing government to make decisions for these children notwithstanding the wishes of the children and the judgment of their parents and treating physicians is coming from a place of ignorance.
Fixed that for you. --Bob
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#11 Post by BackInTex » Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:57 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:52 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:14 pm
Since I don't really know any parents of transgender children nor have I experienced any situations these parents are put in, we'll have to assume your interest in allowing government to make decisions for these children notwithstanding the wishes of the children and the judgment of their parents and treating physicians is coming from a place of ignorance.
Fixed that for you. --Bob
You didn’t fix anything. I do know parents of a transgender person. My brother in law’s brother and wife whom we’ve vacationed with. Their son had his dick cut off and posted on FB when he purchased a kit to make a plaster cast of it so he could keep a copy of it to pleasure himself. I know you think that normal but it’s not. It’s sick. But now he’s got something in common with you as he can fuck himself, too.

You know, you’d think a lawyer who’s threatened folks with legal action on this board would refrain from intentionally creating a completely false quote, but I guess only a good one would refrain from such stuff.
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#12 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:17 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:57 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:52 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:14 pm
Since I don't really know any parents of transgender children nor have I experienced any situations these parents are put in, we'll have to assume your interest in allowing government to make decisions for these children notwithstanding the wishes of the children and the judgment of their parents and treating physicians is coming from a place of ignorance.
Fixed that for you. --Bob
You didn’t fix anything. I do know parents of a transgender person. My brother in law’s brother and wife whom we’ve vacationed with. Their son had his dick cut off and posted on FB when he purchased a kit to make a plaster cast of it so he could keep a copy of it to pleasure himself. I know you think that normal but it’s not. It’s sick. But now he’s got something in common with you as he can fuck himself, too.

You know, you’d think a lawyer who’s threatened folks with legal action on this board would refrain from intentionally creating a completely false quote, but I guess only a good one would refrain from such stuff.
You'd think someone willing to argue that sss's views are illegitimate unless he has personal experience with the situation would be willing to live by the same standard. I guess not. Like most Republicans, your preferred values are Holy Writ, whereas those you disagree with must be defeated by any means necessary. --Bob
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#13 Post by Spock » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:13 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:17 pm
Like most Republicans, your preferred values are Holy Writ, whereas those you disagree with must be defeated by any means necessary. --Bob
LOL-Remove the beam from your own eye before your worry about the speck in your neighbor's eye.

Cancel Culture Much?

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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#14 Post by Bob78164 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:21 am

Spock wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:13 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:17 pm
Like most Republicans, your preferred values are Holy Writ, whereas those you disagree with must be defeated by any means necessary. --Bob
LOL-Remove the beam from your own eye before your worry about the speck in your neighbor's eye.

Cancel Culture Much?
Talk to me about cancel culture when you find elected Democrats making a serious effort to take tax breaks away from companies because they don't like the content of the companies' political speech. Talk to me about cancel culture when you find Democrats advocating for court decisions that will allow businesses to refuse to serve customers simply because they don't like those customers' private lives. Talk to me about cancel culture when you find Democrats opposing laws that would protect the employment of people who want nothing more than to go about their lives without interference. Talk to me about cancel culture when Colin Kaepernick has a job. Hell, maybe you've heard of John Carlos and Tommie Smith.

Republicans are more willing than are Democrats to employ "cancel culture." The difference is that when Republicans do it, they're perfectly happy to use the full force of government to that end. Which should be horrifying for anyone who claims to respect individual liberties. But at this point it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that most of what remains of the Republican Party is utterly hypocritical, willing to abandon any principle if necessary to preserve raw political power by any means necessary. Any means, that is, except seeking views that are shared by a majority of the electorate. --Bob
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#15 Post by silverscreenselect » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:37 am

Bob78164 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:21 am
Talk to me about cancel culture when you find Democrats advocating for court decisions that will allow businesses to refuse to serve customers simply because they don't like those customers' private lives.
Republicans have no problem with allowing businesses to refuse to serve customers who are gay but they have a big problem with allowing businesses to refuse to serve customers who don't wear masks during a pandemic.
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#16 Post by SportsFan68 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:41 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:13 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:51 am

I'll ask BiT. Do you think the two incidents I described in my post would have gone down the way they did if the suspects had been black?
All other things being equal, time of day, location, information received about the car over dispatch before you were approached and if the suspects behaved as you did, yes, I think they would have gone down just like that.

I'll ask you two questions:

1) how many law enforcement officers, current or former, do you personally know, that you could call up this evening and ask them over to dinner?
2) how may times have you done a ride-a-long and how many of those were during the graveyard shift?
1) Three or four, except I don't know if they all still live here. One definitely -- I want to buy her camper trailer.
2) Six -- two graves, three swings, one days.

I don't see how those things tell you anything pro or con your point.
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#17 Post by Spock » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:49 am

I am sure that SSS just forgot to mention this officer-involved February shooting of 2 white redneck brothers in rural Wadena County(my wife's hometown area).

https://kstp.com/news/bca-identifies-of ... 1/6029415/

The most interesting aspect of the story (besides the fact that they were white-Per SSS-Apparently, Minnesota cops don't shoot white people) is the taser aspect.

How many times do we hear variations of "Why didn't the cops use the taser?"

From the story>>>>"Mayer deployed his Taser toward David Savela but it was ineffective, the BCA said"<<<<<

Story also indicates that every time the police pull somebody over, wherever it might be, there is the chance that things might go bad.

I know the answer-maybe they shouldn't pull anybody over.

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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#18 Post by BackInTex » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:39 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:37 am
Bob78164 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:21 am
Talk to me about cancel culture when you find Democrats advocating for court decisions that will allow businesses to refuse to serve customers simply because they don't like those customers' private lives.
Republicans have no problem with allowing businesses to refuse to serve customers who are gay but they have a big problem with allowing businesses to refuse to serve customers who don't wear masks during a pandemic.
I don't know of any businesses refusing to serve people because they are gay. The ones you are maybe thinking about are not refusing to serve the customer because they are gay but refusing to deliver a product that is against their beliefs. If a straight customer wanted something celebrating National Pride day, they would refuse that person as well.

And I have no problem with businesses refusing to serve anyone who doesn't want to comply with an establishment's dress and/or behavior codes. In Texas, about half the retail establishments still require masks. Per our Republican governor, that is their right and he even encourage businesses to establish their own standards based on what they felt best for their employees and customers and he stated that customers must abide by the individual business' rules.
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#19 Post by BackInTex » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:40 am

Bob78164 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:21 am
Republicans are more willing than are Democrats to employ "cancel culture." The difference is that when Republicans do it, they're perfectly happy to use the full force of government to that end. Which should be horrifying for anyone who claims to respect individual liberties. But at this point it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that most of what remains of the Republican Party is utterly hypocritical, willing to abandon any principle if necessary to preserve raw political power by any means necessary. Any means, that is, except seeking views that are shared by a majority of the electorate. --Bob
You are a very confused person.
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#20 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:44 am

Spock wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:49 am
I am sure that SSS just forgot to mention this officer-involved February shooting of 2 white redneck brothers in rural Wadena County(my wife's hometown area).
Let's review what happened with a car that was speeding (I couldn't find any report that indicated how fast they were going, but it was fast enough to spin out and get stuck in a snowbank):

One brother was driving the car that spun out. He refused to identify himself and exit the vehicle (turns out he was set for a trial in a month for fleeing a police officer in another case). At this point, the second brother's vehicle arrived at the scene and he began to approach.

The deputy then tried to use his Taser on the first brother. When that failed (I'm guessing that heavy clothing might have played a factor), he tried to pull the first driver out of the vehicle.

The second cop arrived and the second cop told the second brother to leave, then tried to help subdue the first brother. The second brother then drew his gun and started shooting at the two cops, hitting both of them. The cops left the first brother and then retreated to cover behind the passenger side of the first brother's car. The first brother then drew his gun and started firing, hitting one of the officers.

IT WAS ONLY AT THIS POINT THAT THE OFFICERS DREW THEIR GUNS AND RETURNED FIRE.

The case apparently is still currently under investigation, and, of course, this is the police version of what happened. But there was a passenger in one of the police cars who was presumably a witness to what happened, and there was dashcam and bodycam evidence as well.

So, in order for white suspects to get shot in Minnesota, they have to draw guns and shoot two police officers. In order for black suspects to get killed, they have to have air fresheners in their car.

NOTE: Since Spock apparently deleted his original post, I'll include his cite to the original news coverage of the case:

https://kstp.com/news/bca-identifies-of ... 1/6029415/
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#21 Post by BackInTex » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:55 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:44 am

NOTE: Since Spock apparently deleted his original post, I'll include his cite to the original news coverage of the case:

https://kstp.com/news/bca-identifies-of ... 1/6029415/
What original post? The post I see has the exact same reference you are giving.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
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Re: How Not to Get Shot by Police in MN (If You're White)

#22 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:02 am

BackInTex wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:55 am
silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:44 am

NOTE: Since Spock apparently deleted his original post, I'll include his cite to the original news coverage of the case:

https://kstp.com/news/bca-identifies-of ... 1/6029415/
What original post? The post I see has the exact same reference you are giving.
Sorry, I looked at the post immediately before mine in the thread, saw that it was something else, and thought that Spock had deleted his post. I apologize.
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