Still glad you voted for him?

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Jeemie
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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#76 Post by Jeemie » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:50 pm

Bob78164 wrote:I believe that he simply overlooked the potential effect of the proposal on health insurance rates to be paid by veterans. --Bob
Oh come on!

Obama may be many things, but he's NOT stupid.

He "didn't consider that health insurance rates might not go up" when said companies would be forced to cover situations where serious injury is very likely to occur?

You HONESTLY can't believe Obama "overlooked that".

And if you DO honestly believe that, then you're going to trust a President with complex issues when he can't even figure out SIMPLE effects from NON-COMPLEX issues?

This isn't rocket science. "Gee- if we force private insurance companies to cover soldiers' combat injuries, what will happen to the insurance rates?" DUUUH.

With thinking like this, can you explain exactly what "track record" you have that would show you weren't "reflexively cheerleading"?
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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#77 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:00 pm

Jeemie wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:I believe that he simply overlooked the potential effect of the proposal on health insurance rates to be paid by veterans. --Bob
Oh come on!

Obama may be many things, but he's NOT stupid.

He "didn't consider that health insurance rates might not go up" when said companies would be forced to cover situations where serious injury is very likely to occur?

You HONESTLY can't believe Obama "overlooked that".
How much time do you think he spent on the issue when it was first presented to him? And apparently the American Legion meeting reported by the article that started this thread went off in a different direction rather than focusing on the economic effect.

As someone who's starting to learn what it's like to be overwhelmed with work, I'm developing a lot of sympathy for overlooking things. Stuff like this is easy to see when you've got time to focus on it. But when there's simply too much going on every day to focus on everything, stuff will happen that will make you look stupid. The key is to retain the ability to correct mistakes. This was a mistake, but he fixed it fast. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#78 Post by Jeemie » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:05 pm

Bob78164 wrote:As someone who's starting to learn what it's like to be overwhelmed with work, I'm developing a lot of sympathy for overlooking things. Stuff like this is easy to see when you've got time to focus on it. But when there's simply too much going on every day to focus on everything, stuff will happen that will make you look stupid. The key is to retain the ability to correct mistakes. This was a mistake, but he fixed it fast. --Bob
I spent about 30 seconds thinking about the issue when it first came up, and immediately understood what the likely effect would be.

It's not rocket science- being "overwhelmed by work" is no excuse.
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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#79 Post by BackInTex » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:12 pm

Jeemie wrote: It's not rocket science- being "overwhelmed by work" is no excuse.
If he is overwhelmed, why did he go on Leno?

He is not overwhelmed, just under qualified. Way so.
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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#80 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:15 pm

Jeemie wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:As someone who's starting to learn what it's like to be overwhelmed with work, I'm developing a lot of sympathy for overlooking things. Stuff like this is easy to see when you've got time to focus on it. But when there's simply too much going on every day to focus on everything, stuff will happen that will make you look stupid. The key is to retain the ability to correct mistakes. This was a mistake, but he fixed it fast. --Bob
I spent about 30 seconds thinking about the issue when it first came up, and immediately understood what the likely effect would be.

It's not rocket science- being "overwhelmed by work" is no excuse.
I'm guessing that when it first came up for Obama, it was something like item number 7 on a 30-item list presented to him for approval. Again, when the issue was squarely presented, he adopted the right policy. And that's the test I care about. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#81 Post by TheCalvinator24 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:18 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:As someone who's starting to learn what it's like to be overwhelmed with work, I'm developing a lot of sympathy for overlooking things. Stuff like this is easy to see when you've got time to focus on it. But when there's simply too much going on every day to focus on everything, stuff will happen that will make you look stupid. The key is to retain the ability to correct mistakes. This was a mistake, but he fixed it fast. --Bob
I spent about 30 seconds thinking about the issue when it first came up, and immediately understood what the likely effect would be.

It's not rocket science- being "overwhelmed by work" is no excuse.
I'm guessing that when it first came up for Obama, it was something like item number 7 on a 30-item list presented to him for approval. Again, when the issue was squarely presented, he adopted the right policy. And that's the test I care about. --Bob
Since I agreed with Bob#### before, I'll point out that on this point, I think he's giving the President WAY too much slack.
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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#82 Post by Flybrick » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:24 pm

Bob78164 wrote:


As someone who's starting to learn what it's like to be overwhelmed with work, I'm developing a lot of sympathy for overlooking things. Stuff like this is easy to see when you've got time to focus on it. But when there's simply too much going on every day to focus on everything, stuff will happen that will make you look stupid. The key is to retain the ability to correct mistakes. This was a mistake, but he fixed it fast. --Bob
Hmm, so that phenomena applies only to this President?

That's convenient...

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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#83 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:30 pm

Flybrick wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:


As someone who's starting to learn what it's like to be overwhelmed with work, I'm developing a lot of sympathy for overlooking things. Stuff like this is easy to see when you've got time to focus on it. But when there's simply too much going on every day to focus on everything, stuff will happen that will make you look stupid. The key is to retain the ability to correct mistakes. This was a mistake, but he fixed it fast. --Bob
Hmm, so that phenomena applies only to this President?

That's convenient...
The last one [subliminal]Mission Accomplished[/subliminal] didn't demonstrate much ability [subliminal]WMDs[/subliminal] to learn from mistakes or to avoid founding actual bad policy on issues [subliminal]Iraq troop levels[/subliminal] that should have received (and presumably did) a large fraction of his attention. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#84 Post by wintergreen48 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:32 pm

Bob78164 wrote:Show me that he had considered before the storm broke the likely effect the proposal would have had on the price veterans would pay for private insurance. --Bob
Without getting into the 'true believer' stuff (for the moment), this one point fascinates me: either Obama DID consider the effects of the proposal, or he DID NOT consider the effects of the proposal.

If he DID consider the effects-- which are very obvious and clear to anyone with two brain cells to rub together-- then it seems pretty clear that he backed off solely because of the firestorm that was beginning to develop, in which case he seems to have made a decision based entirely upon how the wind blows.

If he DID NOT consider the consequences, well, I'm not sure how to categorize this, but doesn't that mean he is just spinning ideas and hoping that someone else will explain to him and his administration why a particular idea is good or not, and what might happen if he acts upon a particular idea? And if he is in the habit of just throwing out random ideas and looking for 'feedback,' well, does that not suggest that he is inclined to make a final decision based upon which way the wind blows?

The problem with the supposition that he did NOT consider the consequences is that it suggests that, at the very least, he is not thinking things through at all. In this particular instance, even before considering whether it is a good or bad idea, there are two things that immediately leap to my mind: (1) anyone who is in the military (whether on active duty or reserve status) who has private health insurance will face huge premium increases, simply because her/his risk has gone up (assuming that a private insurer is even willing or able to cover those risks), and (2) most insurance policies include specific 'act of war' exemptions, which expressly do NOT provide coverage for any loss that is the result of any 'act of war' (and the policies typically go so far as to define 'war' as including 'undeclared' war, e.g., Iraq and Afghanistan). Now, you can argue whether or not the proposal would be good policy or not, given those considerations, but I hardly think that you can justify suggesting such a policy if you have not, at the very least, considered those considerations. If you are correct in your supposition that
he had [not] considered before the storm broke the likely effect the proposal would have had on the price veterans would pay for private insurance,
well, he is probably the only person in the country who did not think of that.

And to get back to the 'true believer' point, this is what I am getting at: it seems to me that there are some people who will accept ANYTHING that Obama does or says, no matter how whack, and they will find some way to justify it (just as there are some people who will object to ANYTHING that Obama does or says, no matter how honorable and well-thought out, and will find some way to attack it). If someone were to take the position that Obama is doing a pretty good job generally, although, like Homer, he sometimes nods, I would have no problem with it: I might not agree with them, but I would not have any problem with their taking that approach. Similarly, if someone were to take the position that Obama is doing a pretty lousy job generally, although, like the Cubs, he does win one occasionally, I would have no problem with it: I might not agree with them, but I would not have any problem with their taking that approach. But when someone seems to take the position that Obama is infallible (and there is only one person, in one very narrowly constrained set of circumstances, to whom I concede infallibility), or when someone seems to take the position that Obama is the anti-Christ (and there is only one person, in one very narrowly constrained set of circumstances, to whom I concede, um, anti-Christness), well, this vexes me.
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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#85 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:36 pm

wintergreen48 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:Show me that he had considered before the storm broke the likely effect the proposal would have had on the price veterans would pay for private insurance. --Bob
Without getting into the 'true believer' stuff (for the moment), this one point fascinates me: either Obama DID consider the effects of the proposal, or he DID NOT consider the effects of the proposal.

If he DID consider the effects-- which are very obvious and clear to anyone with two brain cells to rub together-- then it seems pretty clear that he backed off solely because of the firestorm that was beginning to develop, in which case he seems to have made a decision based entirely upon how the wind blows.

If he DID NOT consider the consequences, well, I'm not sure how to categorize this, but doesn't that mean he is just spinning ideas and hoping that someone else will explain to him and his administration why a particular idea is good or not, and what might happen if he acts upon a particular idea? And if he is in the habit of just throwing out random ideas and looking for 'feedback,' well, does that not suggest that he is inclined to make a final decision based upon which way the wind blows?

The problem with the supposition that he did NOT consider the consequences is that it suggests that, at the very least, he is not thinking things through at all. In this particular instance, even before considering whether it is a good or bad idea, there are two things that immediately leap to my mind: (1) anyone who is in the military (whether on active duty or reserve status) who has private health insurance will face huge premium increases, simply because her/his risk has gone up (assuming that a private insurer is even willing or able to cover those risks), and (2) most insurance policies include specific 'act of war' exemptions, which expressly do NOT provide coverage for any loss that is the result of any 'act of war' (and the policies typically go so far as to define 'war' as including 'undeclared' war, e.g., Iraq and Afghanistan). Now, you can argue whether or not the proposal would be good policy or not, given those considerations, but I hardly think that you can justify suggesting such a policy if you have not, at the very least, considered those considerations. If you are correct in your supposition that
he had [not] considered before the storm broke the likely effect the proposal would have had on the price veterans would pay for private insurance,
well, he is probably the only person in the country who did not think of that.

And to get back to the 'true believer' point, this is what I am getting at: it seems to me that there are some people who will accept ANYTHING that Obama does or says, no matter how whack, and they will find some way to justify it (just as there are some people who will object to ANYTHING that Obama does or says, no matter how honorable and well-thought out, and will find some way to attack it). If someone were to take the position that Obama is doing a pretty good job generally, although, like Homer, he sometimes nods, I would have no problem with it: I might not agree with them, but I would not have any problem with their taking that approach. Similarly, if someone were to take the position that Obama is doing a pretty lousy job generally, although, like the Cubs, he does win one occasionally, I would have no problem with it: I might not agree with them, but I would not have any problem with their taking that approach. But when someone seems to take the position that Obama is infallible (and there is only one person, in one very narrowly constrained set of circumstances, to whom I concede infallibility), or when someone seems to take the position that Obama is the anti-Christ (and there is only one person, in one very narrowly constrained set of circumstances, to whom I concede, um, anti-Christness), well, this vexes me.
Now this is worthy of you. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#86 Post by Jeemie » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:39 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:As someone who's starting to learn what it's like to be overwhelmed with work, I'm developing a lot of sympathy for overlooking things. Stuff like this is easy to see when you've got time to focus on it. But when there's simply too much going on every day to focus on everything, stuff will happen that will make you look stupid. The key is to retain the ability to correct mistakes. This was a mistake, but he fixed it fast. --Bob
I spent about 30 seconds thinking about the issue when it first came up, and immediately understood what the likely effect would be.

It's not rocket science- being "overwhelmed by work" is no excuse.
I'm guessing that when it first came up for Obama, it was something like item number 7 on a 30-item list presented to him for approval. Again, when the issue was squarely presented, he adopted the right policy. And that's the test I care about. --Bob
For someone who is "not a reflexive cheerleader", your first "reflexive action" always seems to find any way to cut Obama slack on an issue that is INCREDIBLY simple.

I don't care if this issue was #14,276th on a list Obama was given- it is NOT a complex issue. Even a summary statement of this issue would be enough to get someone with even two functioning brain cells to say "WHOA! Back the truck up on that one!"
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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#87 Post by Flybrick » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:44 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
The last one [subliminal]Mission Accomplished[/subliminal] didn't demonstrate much ability [subliminal]WMDs[/subliminal] to learn from mistakes or to avoid founding actual bad policy on issues [subliminal]Iraq troop levels[/subliminal] that should have received (and presumably did) a large fraction of his attention. --Bob
I will take that as a "yes" it only applies to this President.

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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#88 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:49 pm

wintergreen48 wrote:If he DID consider the effects-- which are very obvious and clear to anyone with two brain cells to rub together-- then it seems pretty clear that he backed off solely because of the firestorm that was beginning to develop, in which case he seems to have made a decision based entirely upon how the wind blows.
I wouldn't characterize it quite that way (I'm okay with Presidents making decisions to preserve political capital for the battles that matter to them), but if he approved the policy having considered that it would likely have an adverse effect on insurance rates for veterans, I would think less of him.
wintergreen48 wrote:If he DID NOT consider the consequences, well, I'm not sure how to categorize this, but doesn't that mean he is just spinning ideas and hoping that someone else will explain to him and his administration why a particular idea is good or not, and what might happen if he acts upon a particular idea? And if he is in the habit of just throwing out random ideas and looking for 'feedback,' well, does that not suggest that he is inclined to make a final decision based upon which way the wind blows?

The problem with the supposition that he did NOT consider the consequences is that it suggests that, at the very least, he is not thinking things through at all.
Here, I think, is the crux of our disagreement. It clearly means he didn't think this proposal through at all. But that doesn't mean that he's not generally thinking things through. As has been pointed out, no one (well, almost no one) disputes that he's a smart man with genuine intellectual curiousity. (I'm told he's even written a book or two. With big words and everything.) What I think it means (and admittedly I'm predisposed to favor the guy) is that he's still learning the executive skill of figuring out for this position what requires his focus and what can safely fly beneath his radar. Given that, as of this writing, he's been President for two months, three hours, and forty-nine minutes, I am still willing to cut him some slack here.

If I'm right, we'll see fewer of these incidents as time passes. If I'm wrong, I'm sure there will be no shortage of people to point out his shortcomings. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#89 Post by Bob Juch » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:14 am

Jeemie wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:I believe that he simply overlooked the potential effect of the proposal on health insurance rates to be paid by veterans. --Bob
Oh come on!

Obama may be many things, but he's NOT stupid.

He "didn't consider that health insurance rates might not go up" when said companies would be forced to cover situations where serious injury is very likely to occur?

You HONESTLY can't believe Obama "overlooked that".

And if you DO honestly believe that, then you're going to trust a President with complex issues when he can't even figure out SIMPLE effects from NON-COMPLEX issues?

This isn't rocket science. "Gee- if we force private insurance companies to cover soldiers' combat injuries, what will happen to the insurance rates?" DUUUH.

With thinking like this, can you explain exactly what "track record" you have that would show you weren't "reflexively cheerleading"?
Private insurance companies or the federal government still have to pay; it comes out of our pockets either way.
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Re: Still glad you voted for him?

#90 Post by Jeemie » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:26 am

Bob Juch wrote:Private insurance companies or the federal government still have to pay; it comes out of our pockets either way.
I was talking about how this would affect the SOLDIERS' private insurance rates (or whether they could even GET insurance).

I'm perfectly happy to pay for this government service, since it's actually one everyone can agree they're supposed to provide.
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