Heisman prejudice

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TheCalvinator24 · #1 Post by **TheCalvinator24** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:04 pm

Below, you will find the stats of 6 College Quarterbacks. 5 of them received at least one First Place vote in the most recent ESPN.com Heisman Watch poll. One of them didn't appear on any ballots at all. All 6 play on teams that are or have been in the Top 10 this season.

. . . . . .CM | ATT .| YDS .|CMP%| YPA .| TD |INT | RAT
QB#1 333 | 555 | 3953 | 60.0 | 7.12 | 28 |16| 130.72
QB#2 349 | 495 | 3951 | 70.5 | 7.98 | 33 | 9 | 155.92
QB#3 217 | 317 | 3132 | 68.5 | 9.88 | 29 | 6 | 177.85
QB#4 198 | 282 | 2670 | 70.2 | 9.47 | 32 | 7 | 182.23
QB#5 172 | 254 | 2136 | 67.7 | 8.41 | 20 | 4 | 161.19
QB#6 129 | 187 | 1498 | 69.0 | 8.01 | 12 | 4 | 153.17

Can you pick out the QB who isn't getting Heisman consideration, but should be?

tanstaafl2 · #2 Post by **tanstaafl2** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:34 pm

I would guess Colt Brennan but Hawaii hasn't been ranked that high. Or Reesing who isn't getting much Heisman press.

But given you location in Texas how about Graham Harrell at Texas Tech? I think he has had some big numbers. Although not sure they were in the top 10 at some point this year either.

Hard to win it if you aren't on a team near the top of the polls.

silvercamaro · #3 Post by **silvercamaro** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:38 pm

As I have proven, I don't know nothin' 'bout no metrics. Nevertheless, I suspect the answer is QB #4, a freshman phenom whose team probably would be ranked this week at No. 1 if he hadn't suffered a concussion and been taken out of play at the beginning of last week's game.

This week, not only is he back, but the second-string QB is starting to look pretty darn solid, too.

Heisman voters always have been nervous about freshmen.

tanstaafl2 · #4 Post by **tanstaafl2** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:46 pm

silvercamaro wrote:As I have proven, I don't know nothin' 'bout no metrics. Nevertheless, I suspect the answer is QB #4, a freshman phenom whose team probably would be ranked this week at No. 1 if he hadn't suffered a concussion and been taken out of play at the beginning of last week's game.

This week, not only is he back, but the second-string QB is starting to look pretty darn solid, too.

Heisman voters always have been nervous about freshmen.

Ah! No doubt that is the answer. Life as a freshman is indeed fraught with challenges...

peacock2121 · #5 Post by **peacock2121** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:27 pm

Oh! That kind of prejudice.

TheCalvinator24 · #6 Post by **TheCalvinator24** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:45 pm

peacock2121 wrote:Oh! That kind of prejudice.

Well, that's mainly what I was talking about, but I also think there is an anti-OU bias among Heisman voters.

And maybe they would be biased against him because he's a Native American.

Ritterskoop · #7 Post by **Ritterskoop** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:00 pm

TheCalvinator24 wrote:
peacock2121 wrote:Oh! That kind of prejudice.
Well, that's mainly what I was talking about, but I also think there is an anti-OU bias among Heisman voters.

Why do you think so? I see four winners on the list, which does not seem disproportionate.

Or it might be disproportionate the other way. There are seven each for Notre Dame, USC and OSU, then Oklahoma. I see a bias for those schools, not against them.

TheCalvinator24 · #8 Post by **TheCalvinator24** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:25 pm

I can think of two times when an OU player should have won but didn't. Of course, that might be more because the Heisman voters don't like giving it to the same person twice. Two times, an OU Junior won, and then should have won again as a Senior. Both times, a player from USC got it.

Ritterskoop · #9 Post by **Ritterskoop** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:40 pm

TheCalvinator24 wrote:I can think of two times when an OU player should have won but didn't. Of course, that might be more because the Heisman voters don't like giving it to the same person twice. Two times, an OU Junior won, and then should have won again as a Senior. Both times, a player from USC got it.

Isn't this bias instead the one against awarding the same person twice (it's only happened for Archie Griffin), rather than against a particular school?

rayxtwo · #10 Post by **rayxtwo** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:30 pm

My guess would be Number 6. Another guess that it's the Oklahoma QB as well.

Ray

Appa23 · #11 Post by **Appa23** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:36 pm

TheCalvinator24 wrote:I can think of two times when an OU player should have won but didn't. Of course, that might be more because the Heisman voters don't like giving it to the same person twice. Two times, an OU Junior won, and then should have won again as a Senior. Both times, a player from USC got it.

I may have the wrong year, but I believe that Billy Sims shot himself in the foot that second year (1978) by repeatedly fumbling against Nebraska, including one that cost the top-ranked Sooners the game.

Who is the second player? I can not imagine that you are saying that Jason White deserved the Heisman over Matt Leinart.

TheCalvinator24 · #12 Post by **TheCalvinator24** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:47 pm

Ritterskoop wrote:
TheCalvinator24 wrote:I can think of two times when an OU player should have won but didn't. Of course, that might be more because the Heisman voters don't like giving it to the same person twice. Two times, an OU Junior won, and then should have won again as a Senior. Both times, a player from USC got it.
Isn't this bias instead the one against awarding the same person twice (it's only happened for Archie Griffin), rather than against a particular school?

Yes, and I acknowledged that was a factor in the bolded part above.

TheCalvinator24 · #13 Post by **TheCalvinator24** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:48 pm

Appa23 wrote:
TheCalvinator24 wrote:I can think of two times when an OU player should have won but didn't. Of course, that might be more because the Heisman voters don't like giving it to the same person twice. Two times, an OU Junior won, and then should have won again as a Senior. Both times, a player from USC got it.
I may have the wrong year, but I believe that Billy Sims shot himself in the foot that second year (1978) by repeatedly fumbling against Nebraska, including onet hat cost the top-ranked Sooners the game.

Who is the second player? I can not imagine that you are saying that Jason White deserved the Heisman over Matt Leinart.

Yes, I am. White had a better season than Leinart and had a better season than he had as a Junior. He did more with less. Leinart was over-rated. Without White, OU would have been mediocre.

Appa23 · #14 Post by **Appa23** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:53 pm

TheCalvinator24 wrote:
Appa23 wrote:
TheCalvinator24 wrote:I can think of two times when an OU player should have won but didn't. Of course, that might be more because the Heisman voters don't like giving it to the same person twice. Two times, an OU Junior won, and then should have won again as a Senior. Both times, a player from USC got it.
I may have the wrong year, but I believe that Billy Sims shot himself in the foot that second year (1978) by repeatedly fumbling against Nebraska, including onet hat cost the top-ranked Sooners the game.

Who is the second player? I can not imagine that you are saying that Jason White deserved the Heisman over Matt Leinart.
Yes, I am. White had a better season than Leinart and had a better season than he had as a Junior. He did more with less. Leinart was over-rated. Without White, OU would have been mediocre.

He did more with less? What? White had Adrian Peterson (now, if you wanted to say that Peterson was robbed, go ahead.)

With OU losing by a country mile against USC in the Orange Bowl, it would seem that they were mediocre with White, as well.

Anyway, I can not agree with you. Matt Leinart was a Top-Ten alltime college QB. 37-2 speaks for itself.

TheCalvinator24 · #15 Post by **TheCalvinator24** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:00 pm

Appa23 wrote:Matt Leinart was a Top-Ten alltime college QB. 37-2 speaks for itself.

Step away from the crack pipe.

silvercamaro · #16 Post by **silvercamaro** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:02 pm

Appa23 wrote:.
Who is the second player? I can not imagine that you are saying that Jason White deserved the Heisman over Matt Leinart.

I've always thought it was interesting that the second- and third-place finishers that year -- Adrian Peterson and White, both from OU -- had several hundred more votes combined than Leinart. Nobody knows what the outcome might have been if only one or the other had been among the finalists.

My personal opinion is that Peterson should have won. Without taking anything away from Leinart, who most certainly guided his team to great success, A.D. was amazing as a junior. (Injuries marred his senior year.)

P.S. FTR, Sims won in 1978, but not in '79.

Appa23 · #17 Post by **Appa23** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:03 pm

Comp Att Yds % YPA TD Int Rating

251 377 2990 66.6 7.9 28 6 154.5 Leinart

231 354 2961 65.3 8.4 33 6 162.9 White

The stats look similar.

I think some voters could not shake the memory of White's performances against KSU and LSU at the end of 2003, plus the fact that this was his sixth year of eligibility.

The bar always is higher to be a repeat winner (unless you are Archie Griffin).

Appa23 · #18 Post by **Appa23** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:08 pm

silvercamaro wrote:
Appa23 wrote:.
Who is the second player? I can not imagine that you are saying that Jason White deserved the Heisman over Matt Leinart.
I've always thought it was interesting that the second- and third-place finishers that year -- Adrian Peterson and White, both from OU -- had several hundred more votes combined than Leinart. Nobody knows what the outcome might have been if only one or the other had been among the finalists.

My personal opinion is that Peterson should have won. Without taking anything away from Leinart, who most certainly guided his team to great success, A.D. was amazing as a junior. (Injuries marred his senior year.)

P.S. FTR, Sims won in 1978, but not in '79.

Reggie Bush took votes from Leinart as well.'

Peterson was a frosh in 2004.

He left college after his junior year (when he missed time for the broken collarbone.)

Thanks for the info on Sims. Looking up 1979, Chalres White lead the nation in rushing. Not that hard to see what he was a landslide winner over Sims.

silvercamaro · #19 Post by **silvercamaro** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:13 pm

Appa23 wrote:
Reggie Bush took votes from Leinart as well.'

Peterson was a frosh in 2004.

He left college after his junior year (when he missed time for the broken collarbone.)

Yes. Sorry about that.

TheCalvinator24 · #20 Post by **TheCalvinator24** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:21 pm

I wrote about this back in 2004

More about Sims:

After losing to the University of Arkansas 31-6 in 1978, Sims led the Sooners to two consecutive Orange Bowl titles in three straight appearances. In the Orange Bowl following the 1978 season, he scored two touchdowns in a 31-24 win over the University of Nebraska. In 1979 against then-unbeaten Nebraska, who had the No. 1 rushing defense in the country at the time, Sims ran for 247 yards and helped the Sooners to a 17-14 win.