13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

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Bob Juch
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13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#1 Post by Bob Juch » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:09 am

CBS wrote:THOUSAND OAKS, Calif. -- At least eleven people were wounded in a shooting in a crowded bar here, reports CBS Los Angeles.

The station says one was seen -- apparently lifeless -- on the ground outside the bar's entrance.

Ventura County Sheriff's Deputies responded to the Borderline Bar and Grill, some 40 miles west of L.A., at about 11:30 p.m.

Ventura County Sheriff's Office Capt. Garo Kuredjian told reporters early Thursday a deputy was among those hit.

The extent of the victims' wounds wasn't immediately known.

Kuredjian said the gunman was confined inside. He was said to have been "neutralized," but it wasn't clear whether he was alive. Kuredjian added there was no longer any threat to the public.
Edited to change to "13 dead".
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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#2 Post by Bob Juch » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:37 am

I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)

Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.

Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.

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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#3 Post by Bob Juch » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:06 am

Shooter identified as Ian David Long, age 28.

I'll bet he was an incel.
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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#4 Post by Estonut » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:03 am

Bob Juch wrote:Shooter identified as Ian David Long, age 28.

I'll bet he was an incel.
An incel with an ex-wife?
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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#5 Post by Estonut » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:06 am

This happened at "College Country Night," featuring country music and line dances. One young man, Telemachus Orfanos, survived the lunatic at the Route 91 Harvest music festival mass shooting in Las Vegas last year, but fell victim to Wednesday's lunatic.

RIP all (except the shooter).
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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#6 Post by Bob Juch » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:51 am

Estonut wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:Shooter identified as Ian David Long, age 28.

I'll bet he was an incel.
An incel with an ex-wife?
Exactly.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#7 Post by Bob Juch » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:53 am

We had a mass shooting here in Tucson last night. An adult and two teens were killed at a public park.
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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#8 Post by Bob Juch » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:58 am

I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)

Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.

Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.

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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#9 Post by Bob78164 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:25 pm

The Ventura County medical examiner has determined that the bullet that killed Sgt. Helus was friendly fire. The shooter hit him five times, but all of those wounds were potentially survivable. The sixth bullet, the only one fired from a rifle, pierced his heart.

This tragedy illustrates why I think it's insane to think that the answer to a bad guy with a gun is lots of good guys with guns. Even with all the training that law enforcement receives, incidents like this happen. I shudder to think how much carnage friendly fire could cause with guns in the hands of well-meaning but untrained civilians. --Bob
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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#10 Post by BackInTex » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:41 pm

Bob78164 wrote:The Ventura County medical examiner has determined that the bullet that killed Sgt. Helus was friendly fire. The shooter hit him five times, but all of those wounds were potentially survivable. The sixth bullet, the only one fired from a rifle, pierced his heart.

This tragedy illustrates why I think it's insane to think that the answer to a bad guy with a gun is lots of good guys with guns. Even with all the training that law enforcement receives, incidents like this happen. I shudder to think how much carnage friendly fire could cause with guns in the hands of well-meaning but untrained civilians. --Bob
We're all in luck. You don't have to think.

There are over 1 million CHL holders in Texas alone. You can begin your research showing thousands of casualties by such untrained well meaning good guys. Go ahead. We'll wait. I will even accept hundreds.
In the end, they will all pretty much taste the same.

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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#11 Post by BackInTex » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:11 am

BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:The Ventura County medical examiner has determined that the bullet that killed Sgt. Helus was friendly fire. The shooter hit him five times, but all of those wounds were potentially survivable. The sixth bullet, the only one fired from a rifle, pierced his heart.

This tragedy illustrates why I think it's insane to think that the answer to a bad guy with a gun is lots of good guys with guns. Even with all the training that law enforcement receives, incidents like this happen. I shudder to think how much carnage friendly fire could cause with guns in the hands of well-meaning but untrained civilians. --Bob
We're all in luck. You don't have to think.

There are over 1 million CHL holders in Texas alone. You can begin your research showing thousands of casualties by such untrained well meaning good guys. Go ahead. We'll wait. I will even accept hundreds.
How long could this possibly take, Bob?
In the end, they will all pretty much taste the same.

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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#12 Post by tlynn78 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:20 am

BackInTex wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:The Ventura County medical examiner has determined that the bullet that killed Sgt. Helus was friendly fire. The shooter hit him five times, but all of those wounds were potentially survivable. The sixth bullet, the only one fired from a rifle, pierced his heart.

This tragedy illustrates why I think it's insane to think that the answer to a bad guy with a gun is lots of good guys with guns. Even with all the training that law enforcement receives, incidents like this happen. I shudder to think how much carnage friendly fire could cause with guns in the hands of well-meaning but untrained civilians. --Bob
We're all in luck. You don't have to think.

There are over 1 million CHL holders in Texas alone. You can begin your research showing thousands of casualties by such untrained well meaning good guys. Go ahead. We'll wait. I will even accept hundreds.
How long could this possibly take, Bob?
He's busy. Busy, busy.
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine

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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#13 Post by BackInTex » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:04 am

I will take the lack of a response as Bob's conclusion that he has little to fear from untrained well meaning good guys.
In the end, they will all pretty much taste the same.

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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#14 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:55 am

BackInTex wrote:There are over 1 million CHL holders in Texas alone. You can begin your research showing thousands of casualties by such untrained well meaning good guys. Go ahead. We'll wait. I will even accept hundreds.
The question isn't about raw numbers. It's about how much harm they do vs. how much good they do. And here's an answer, at least as far as guns in the home are concerned:
Rather than being used for self-defense, guns in the home are 22 times more likely to be involved in accidental shootings, homicides, or suicide attempts. For every one time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were 4 unintentional shootings, 7 criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.i
So, four unintentional shootings for every justifiable use of a gun for self-defense (we won't even count homicides and suicides).

https://nyagv.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... -NYAGV.pdf
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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#15 Post by BackInTex » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:17 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:There are over 1 million CHL holders in Texas alone. You can begin your research showing thousands of casualties by such untrained well meaning good guys. Go ahead. We'll wait. I will even accept hundreds.
The question isn't about raw numbers. It's about how much harm they do vs. how much good they do. And here's an answer, at least as far as guns in the home are concerned:
Rather than being used for self-defense, guns in the home are 22 times more likely to be involved in accidental shootings, homicides, or suicide attempts. For every one time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were 4 unintentional shootings, 7 criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.i
So, four unintentional shootings for every justifiable use of a gun for self-defense (we won't even count homicides and suicides).

https://nyagv.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... -NYAGV.pdf
The population of "used in self-defense or legally justifiable shooting" is under reported, by a lot. You are only counting the reported uses (meaning reported firing). Many defensive uses are simply brandishing it to deter whatever threat there is.
In the end, they will all pretty much taste the same.

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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#16 Post by Bob78164 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:51 am

BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:The Ventura County medical examiner has determined that the bullet that killed Sgt. Helus was friendly fire. The shooter hit him five times, but all of those wounds were potentially survivable. The sixth bullet, the only one fired from a rifle, pierced his heart.

This tragedy illustrates why I think it's insane to think that the answer to a bad guy with a gun is lots of good guys with guns. Even with all the training that law enforcement receives, incidents like this happen. I shudder to think how much carnage friendly fire could cause with guns in the hands of well-meaning but untrained civilians. --Bob
We're all in luck. You don't have to think.

There are over 1 million CHL holders in Texas alone. You can begin your research showing thousands of casualties by such untrained well meaning good guys. Go ahead. We'll wait. I will even accept hundreds.
Gun deaths per capita in California (2016): 7.9 per 100,000 population.
Gun deaths per capital in Texas (2016): 12.1 per 100,000 population.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#17 Post by themanintheseersuckersuit » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:53 am

stay out of Austin
Suitguy is not bitter.

feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive

The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.

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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#18 Post by BackInTex » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:07 am

Bob78164 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:The Ventura County medical examiner has determined that the bullet that killed Sgt. Helus was friendly fire. The shooter hit him five times, but all of those wounds were potentially survivable. The sixth bullet, the only one fired from a rifle, pierced his heart.

This tragedy illustrates why I think it's insane to think that the answer to a bad guy with a gun is lots of good guys with guns. Even with all the training that law enforcement receives, incidents like this happen. I shudder to think how much carnage friendly fire could cause with guns in the hands of well-meaning but untrained civilians. --Bob
We're all in luck. You don't have to think.

There are over 1 million CHL holders in Texas alone. You can begin your research showing thousands of casualties by such untrained well meaning good guys. Go ahead. We'll wait. I will even accept hundreds.
Gun deaths per capita in California (2016): 7.9 per 100,000 population.
Gun deaths per capital in Texas (2016): 12.1 per 100,000 population.
That shows nothing related to "guns in the hands of well-meaning but untrained civilians." And specifically related to an event such as you were referencing.

Try to stay on point. If you can't, then admit it.
In the end, they will all pretty much taste the same.

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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#19 Post by Bob Juch » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:14 pm

themanintheseersuckersuit wrote:stay out of Austin
Why Austin? It probably has fewer gun deaths than any other city of its size in Texas.
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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#20 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:56 pm

BackInTex wrote:The population of "used in self-defense or legally justifiable shooting" is under reported, by a lot. Many defensive uses are simply brandishing it to deter whatever threat there is.
And those tend to be over reported a lot. Someone walking along the street at night who gets approached by some loud, rowdy drunks and pulls a gun is very likely to "deter" them, but whether they actually posed a threat is a different story.

The numbers of so called "deterrence" uses of firearms aren't based on police reports in most cases but on anecdotal evidence supplied by gun owners to pollsters looking for exactly this sort of data.
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Re: 13 dead at bar in Thousand Oaks, CA

#21 Post by Spock » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:19 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:The Ventura County medical examiner has determined that the bullet that killed Sgt. Helus was friendly fire. The shooter hit him five times, but all of those wounds were potentially survivable. The sixth bullet, the only one fired from a rifle, pierced his heart.

This tragedy illustrates why I think it's insane to think that the answer to a bad guy with a gun is lots of good guys with guns. Even with all the training that law enforcement receives, incidents like this happen. I shudder to think how much carnage friendly fire could cause with guns in the hands of well-meaning but untrained civilians. --Bob
We're all in luck. You don't have to think.

There are over 1 million CHL holders in Texas alone. You can begin your research showing thousands of casualties by such untrained well meaning good guys. Go ahead. We'll wait. I will even accept hundreds.
Gun deaths per capita in California (2016): 7.9 per 100,000 population.
Gun deaths per capital in Texas (2016): 12.1 per 100,000 population.
It would be fun to look at the gun death rate in the Texas counties Beto won VS the rate in the counties Cruz won.

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