A Counter-Factual History-Plague Preparation and Lib Reaction

[Spock]

As we tend to like counter-factual histories here:

I am picturing a timeline where, in a September 2017 press conference, President Trump made a major announcement that a prime goal of his administration going forward would be pandemic preparation and awareness at all levels from the federal government to the personal.

Does anyone have any doubts what the reaction of the MSNBC squirrel chasers would have been?

There would have been massive, negative blowback from SSS and the Bobs here.

[silverscreenselect]

I am picturing a timeline where, in a September 2017 press conference, President Trump made a major announcement that a prime goal of his administration going forward would be pandemic preparation and awareness at all levels from the federal government to the personal.

There would have been massive, negative blowback from SSS and the Bobs here.

I can't speak for the Bobs, but I can say that I would have approved that, seeing as how that continued some of the smarter initiatives that Barack Obama put in place during his administration. But that's like saying what would I have done if Trump had proposed a more humane immigration policy. Or if he had re-nominated Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court saying he felt it was his moral obligation to do so.

Because these things just aren't in his nature. He has been obsessed with dismantling Obama's legacy on everything. And, since one of the smarter things Obama did in the wake of the Ebola crisis in 2014 (one where private citizen Trump second-guessed him every step of the way) was to establish a formal Directorate for Global Health and Security and Biodefense (as it was called), Trump got rid of it, and his flunkies claimed it wasn't needed. It may not have been needed in 2018 when it was disbanded, but it sure as heck became needed in recent months.

You misunderstand my own dislike of Trump, which has two components. First, I find him a truly repulsive human being who is not worthy of the office of President and who has constantly lied to the American public and subverted the office for his own enrichment. That is a constant. Second, I find that the vast majority of his policies are poorly selected and bad for the United States. That is an individual reaction based on a particular policy. I have agreed with Trump's decisions in the past and even gave him credit a couple of times (like his pardoning of Jack Johnson). And if he had decided to beef up our pandemic preparedness, even though the decision would probably have been self-centered as usual to make himself appear a great guy, I would have supported it for the good that would have resulted.

[Spock]

I am picturing a timeline where, in a September 2017 press conference, President Trump made a major announcement that a prime goal of his administration going forward would be pandemic preparation and awareness at all levels from the federal government to the personal.

There would have been massive, negative blowback from SSS and the Bobs here.

I can't speak for the Bobs, but I can say that I would have approved that, seeing as how that continued some of the smarter initiatives that Barack Obama put in place during his administration. But that's like saying what would I have done if Trump had proposed a more humane immigration policy. Or if he had re-nominated Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court saying he felt it was his moral obligation to do so.

Because these things just aren't in his nature. He has been obsessed with dismantling Obama's legacy on everything. And, since one of the smarter things Obama did in the wake of the Ebola crisis in 2014 (one where private citizen Trump second-guessed him every step of the way) was to establish a formal Directorate for Global Health and Security and Biodefense (as it was called), Trump got rid of it, and his flunkies claimed it wasn't needed. It may not have been needed in 2018 when it was disbanded, but it sure as heck became needed in recent months.

You misunderstand my own dislike of Trump, which has two components. First, I find him a truly repulsive human being who is not worthy of the office of President and who has constantly lied to the American public and subverted the office for his own enrichment. That is a constant. Second, I find that the vast majority of his policies are poorly selected and bad for the United States. That is an individual reaction based on a particular policy. I have agreed with Trump's decisions in the past and even gave him credit a couple of times (like his pardoning of Jack Johnson). And if he had decided to beef up our pandemic preparedness, even though the decision would probably have been self-centered as usual to make himself appear a great guy, I would have supported it for the good that would have resulted.

I call BS on that. With hindsight-you are all about pandemic preparation. Without the benefit of hindsight, you would have been all over how Trump's evangelical Christian base was apocalyptic and how this was just a sop to them and a means to distract from whatever the MSNBC squirrel was at the time.

[silverscreenselect]

I call BS on that. With hindsight-you are all about pandemic preparation. Without the benefit of hindsight, you would have been all over how Trump's evangelical Christian base was apocalyptic and how this was just a sop to them and a means to distract from whatever the MSNBC squirrel was at the time.

Which might make some sense if anyone on "Trump's evangelical Christian base" expressed any concerns about pandemics in 2017. Indeed, judging by their reactions in 2020, they had the same distrust of science and medicine then as now:

The Religious Right’s Hostility to Science Is Crippling Our Coronavirus Response

At least since the 19th century, when the proslavery theologian Robert Lewis Dabney attacked the physical sciences as “theories of unbelief,” hostility to science has characterized the more extreme forms of religious nationalism in the United States. Today, the hard core of climate deniers is concentrated among people who identify as religiously conservative Republicans. And some leaders of the Christian nationalist movement, like those allied with the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation, which has denounced environmental science as a “Cult of the Green Dragon,” cast environmentalism as an alternative — and false — theology.

This denial of science and critical thinking among religious ultraconservatives now haunts the American response to the coronavirus crisis. On March 15, Guillermo Maldonado, who calls himself an “apostle” and hosted Mr. Trump earlier this year at a campaign event at his Miami megachurch, urged his congregants to show up for worship services in person. “Do you believe God would bring his people to his house to be contagious with the virus? Of course not,” he said.

Rodney Howard-Browne of The River at Tampa Bay Church in Florida mocked people concerned about the disease as “pansies” and insisted he would only shutter the doors to his packed church “when the rapture is taking place.” In a sermon that was live-streamed on Facebook, Tony Spell, a pastor in Louisiana, said, “We’re also going to pass out anointed handkerchiefs to people who may have a fear, who may have a sickness and we believe that when those anointed handkerchiefs go, that healing virtue is going to go on them as well.”

By all accounts, President Trump’s tendency to trust his gut over the experts on issues like vaccines and climate change does not come from any deep-seated religious conviction. But he is perfectly in tune with the religious nationalists who form the core of his base. In his daily briefings from the White House, Mr. Trump actively disdains and contradicts the messages coming from his own experts and touts as yet unproven cures.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/27/opin ... icals.html

[Bob Juch]

As we tend to like counter-factual histories here:

I am picturing a timeline where, in a September 2017 press conference, President Trump made a major announcement that a prime goal of his administration going forward would be pandemic preparation and awareness at all levels from the federal government to the personal.

Does anyone have any doubts what the reaction of the MSNBC squirrel chasers would have been?

There would have been massive, negative blowback from SSS and the Bobs here.

He had no reason to do that; Obama had already set that up. Instead, he dismantled it.

[jarnon]

As we tend to like counter-factual histories here:

I am picturing a timeline where, in a September 2017 press conference, President Trump made a major announcement that a prime goal of his administration going forward would be pandemic preparation and awareness at all levels from the federal government to the personal.

Does anyone have any doubts what the reaction of the MSNBC squirrel chasers would have been?

There would have been massive, negative blowback from SSS and the Bobs here.

He had no reason to do that; Obama had already set that up. Instead, he dismantled it.

Obama may have been better prepared than Trump, but even if Trump had left existing programs intact, we wouldn't have been prepared for this crisis. See this article for instance:

Another New York Times story about how we got into this mess. This one starts many years ago.

The U.S. Tried to Build a New Fleet of Ventilators. The Mission Failed.

(I posted the full article from behind the firewall.)

[Spock]

SSS>>>"First, I find him a truly repulsive human being who is not worthy of the office of President and who has constantly lied to the American public and subverted the office for his own enrichment. That is a constant. Second, I find that the vast majority of his policies are poorly selected and bad for the United States."<<<

Well, at least Trump doesn't spend his time and talents doing political commentary on the dying message board of a defunct game show. So he has that going for him. I am sure that he is really bothered by the fact that a MSNBC squirrel chaser who spends his time and talents doing political commentary on the dying message board of a defunct game show has a poor opinion of him.

[silverscreenselect]

Well, at least Trump doesn't spend his time and talents doing political commentary on the dying message board of a defunct game show.

No, he spends his time conducting political rallies under the guise of news briefings. And that should concern you more than anything I do or anything the Chinese may have done or not done in the past.

[Spock]

Well, at least Trump doesn't spend his time and talents doing political commentary on the dying message board of a defunct game show.

No, he spends his time conducting political rallies under the guise of news briefings. And that should concern you more than anything I do or anything the Chinese may have done or not done in the past.

Once again, as I said in the other thread, why does it bother you so much that one person here wants to look at the China (where the disease emerged) angle? I suggest this indicates that you have the problem, not me.

[Bob78164]

As we tend to like counter-factual histories here:

I am picturing a timeline where, in a September 2017 press conference, President Trump made a major announcement that a prime goal of his administration going forward would be pandemic preparation and awareness at all levels from the federal government to the personal.

Does anyone have any doubts what the reaction of the MSNBC squirrel chasers would have been?

There would have been massive, negative blowback from SSS and the Bobs here.

You still don't get it. All he had to do was nothing. The mechanisms were already in place to get us much more prepared. Donny's Administration actively dismantled them.

You'll note that President Obama, and President Bush 43 before him, managed to put these programs in place without needing to make any kind of major announcement or designating this particular item of preparedness as a prime goal of their administrations. They just did it. --Bob

[Spock]

As we tend to like counter-factual histories here:

I am picturing a timeline where, in a September 2017 press conference, President Trump made a major announcement that a prime goal of his administration going forward would be pandemic preparation and awareness at all levels from the federal government to the personal.

Does anyone have any doubts what the reaction of the MSNBC squirrel chasers would have been?

There would have been massive, negative blowback from SSS and the Bobs here.

You still don't get it. All he had to do was nothing. The mechanisms were already in place to get us much more prepared. Donny's Administration actively dismantled them.

You'll note that President Obama, and President Bush 43 before him, managed to put these programs in place without needing to make any kind of major announcement or designating this particular item of preparedness as a prime goal of their administrations. They just did it. --Bob

Yes Dear, whatever you say dear.

I still can't figure out why the fact that one person here wanting to look at the China angle bothers you guys you so much.

[Bob Juch]

As we tend to like counter-factual histories here:

I am picturing a timeline where, in a September 2017 press conference, President Trump made a major announcement that a prime goal of his administration going forward would be pandemic preparation and awareness at all levels from the federal government to the personal.

Does anyone have any doubts what the reaction of the MSNBC squirrel chasers would have been?

There would have been massive, negative blowback from SSS and the Bobs here.

You still don't get it. All he had to do was nothing. The mechanisms were already in place to get us much more prepared. Donny's Administration actively dismantled them.

You'll note that President Obama, and President Bush 43 before him, managed to put these programs in place without needing to make any kind of major announcement or designating this particular item of preparedness as a prime goal of their administrations. They just did it. --Bob

Yes Dear, whatever you say dear.

I still can't figure out why the fact that one person here wanting to look at the China angle bothers you guys you so much.

Because you're promoting conspiracy theories and deflecting from Trump's negligence.

[Spock]

You still don't get it. All he had to do was nothing. The mechanisms were already in place to get us much more prepared. Donny's Administration actively dismantled them.

You'll note that President Obama, and President Bush 43 before him, managed to put these programs in place without needing to make any kind of major announcement or designating this particular item of preparedness as a prime goal of their administrations. They just did it. --Bob

Yes Dear, whatever you say dear.

I still can't figure out why the fact that one person here wanting to look at the China angle bothers you guys you so much.

Because you're promoting conspiracy theories and deflecting from Trump's negligence.

I have a lot of respect for any readers here. They are perfectly capable of evaluating any conspiracy theories I might have on their own. You don't have to protect them from me. You don't have the right to protect them from me.

I also fail to see how my looking at China deflects anything away from the endless anti-Trump's ranting in the other massive thread. For that matter, there is plenty of anti-Trump ranting going on in any thread where I have tried to talk about China. So apparently, I am huge failure in distracting people from your anti Trump ranting.

Furthermore, you guys seem to be afraid of what I might find by digging around the China angle in this.

Once again, the fact that one person here wants to look at the China angle in this bothers you so much is indicative that you have a problem, not me.

[silverscreenselect]

Furthermore, you guys seem to be afraid of what I might find by digging around the China angle in this.

You'll find that China lied and covered up the extent of the virus. That's already well known by everyone with even a marginal interest in what's going on.

If you can show that the Chinese were responsible for letting the virus out, despite the overwhelming consensus of medical and scientific opinion to the contrary (your one equivocal source notwithstanding), then I'll personally nominate you for next year's Nobel Prize in medicine.

As far as what the harm is from you and those of a similar bent exercising their fantasies:

Woman needed stitches after anti-Asian hate crime attack on city bus, NYPD says

That's far from an isolated example of anti-Asian violence sparked by people propagating all these anti-Chinese theories. I have yet to hear you articulate anything you hope to gain from this, other than pissing me and the Bobs off and satisfying some xenophobic fantasies you may have.

Meanwhile, in the real world, where the medical and scientific community is trying to make material improvements for the future rather than engage in anti-China bashing for the sport of it, there's an increasing amount of pressure on China to close the open air markets responsible for several nasty viruses.

[Spock]

SSS>>>"That's far from an isolated example of anti-Asian violence sparked by people propagating all these anti-Chinese theories. I have yet to hear you articulate anything you hope to gain from this, other than pissing me and the Bobs off and satisfying some xenophobic fantasies you may have."<<<<

Once again, if one person wanting to look at the China angle in this pisses you off, that is indicative that you might have the problem-not me.

[silverscreenselect]

Once again, if one person wanting to look at the China angle in this pisses you off, that is indicative that you might have the problem-not me.

If you want to obsess over fantasies (you're up to about ten different threads on this Bored) to satisfy your dislike of foreigners, that is indicative that you might have the problem--not me.

[Spock]

Once again, if one person wanting to look at the China angle in this pisses you off, that is indicative that you might have the problem-not me.

If you want to obsess over fantasies (you're up to about ten different threads on this Bored) to satisfy your dislike of foreigners, that is indicative that you might have the problem--not me.

Re-Thread number-I have to do something-you guys keep polluting anything I try to post with your anti-Trump/anti-Spock rants.

[Bob Juch]

Once again, if one person wanting to look at the China angle in this pisses you off, that is indicative that you might have the problem-not me.

If you want to obsess over fantasies (you're up to about ten different threads on this Bored) to satisfy your dislike of foreigners, that is indicative that you might have the problem--not me.

Re-Thread number-I have to do something-you guys keep polluting anything I try to post with your anti-Trump/anti-Spock rants.

No, you're polluting the Bored and giving us more threads to bash you in.

[Bob Juch]

Trump ended program to detect potential pandemic-causing viruses before they spread: report

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/49100 ... efore-they

The Trump administration cut a $200 million program that trains scientists in China and other foreign countries to detect viruses that could become pandemics two months before the first case of COVID-19 was detected in Wuhan, China, according to the Los Angeles Times.

The program was launched by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) in 2009 and reportedly supported staff in the Chinese lab that eventually identified the new coronavirus. The initiative, dubbed Predict, was launched in response to the 2005 ”bird flu” outbreak.

According to the Times, USAID on Wednesday gave a $2.26 million grant to help labs around the world control the virus.

“Look at the name: Our efforts were to predict this before it happens. That’s the part of the program that was exciting — and that’s the part I’m worried about,” Peter Daszak, president of EcoHealth Alliance, a key player in the program, told the Times.

Dennis Carroll, a scientist who led USAID’s emerging threats division and retired around the time Predict was cut, told The New York Times in January that the program “essentially collapsed into hibernation.”

Lawmakers have pointed out that the program was cut right at the cusp of the coronavirus pandemic.

“Addressing and preventing the spread of coronavirus and potential pandemic disease outbreaks is a serious matter that requires adequate resources for and cooperation between experts throughout the federal government,” Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) wrote in a letter to USAID in January.

[Bob78164]

It turns out, by the way, that the White House did make preparing for a pandemic a national priority. In 2005. I don't remember seeing any Democratic pushback then or now. --Bob

[Spock]

Furthermore, you guys seem to be afraid of what I might find by digging around the China angle in this.

You'll find that China lied and covered up the extent of the virus. That's already well known by everyone with even a marginal interest in what's going on.

If you can show that the Chinese were responsible for letting the virus out, despite the overwhelming consensus of medical and scientific opinion to the contrary (your one equivocal source notwithstanding), then I'll personally nominate you for next year's Nobel Prize in medicine.

As far as what the harm is from you and those of a similar bent exercising their fantasies:

Woman needed stitches after anti-Asian hate crime attack on city bus, NYPD says

That's far from an isolated example of anti-Asian violence sparked by people propagating all these anti-Chinese theories. I have yet to hear you articulate anything you hope to gain from this, other than pissing me and the Bobs off and satisfying some xenophobic fantasies you may have.

Meanwhile, in the real world, where the medical and scientific community is trying to make material improvements for the future rather than engage in anti-China bashing for the sport of it, there's an increasing amount of pressure on China to close the open air markets responsible for several nasty viruses.

Love your blaming of the attack in the Bronx on "me and my bent."

An unidentified black woman riding mass transit in the Bronx is very unlikely to share any views with me. I would say she is more of your bent. Not my fault, if you guys can't control your urban democrat minorities.

[silverscreenselect]

Not my fault, if you guys can't control your urban democrat minorities.

You're going for a new record in race bashing in one thread Spock. I have a distinct feeling that you would never have gotten on this blame China kick if the virus had originated in, say, Norway.

But as this article shows, it's a lot more than one incident in the Bronx. It's nearly 100 attacks a day against Oriental people. And I do blame those who persist in fanning the flames with this incessant, non-productive "Blame China" shtick for playing on people's fears.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/re ... day-due-to

[Estonut]

But as this article shows, it's a lot more than one incident in the Bronx. It's nearly 100 attacks a day against Oriental people.

Actually, your article describes attacks on Asian Americans. The term you used fell out of favor decades ago and is now the second betrayal of your own racism here.

[silverscreenselect]

But as this article shows, it's a lot more than one incident in the Bronx. It's nearly 100 attacks a day against Oriental people.

Actually, your article describes attacks on Asian Americans. The term you used fell out of favor decades ago and is now the second betrayal of your own racism here.

The term was chosen deliberately by me to distinguish the motivation behind the attacks. I'm sure that these attackers are not checking passports before they attack; instead, they are going after people who "look" Chinese, which describes a much larger number of Oriental people. So, it's not a betrayal of my racism.

[Appa23]

I love the irony of SSS doubling down on the racist use of Oriental after Esto corrected him.

Trust me, when I filled out the census, I noted that my son and daughter are people, not a rug and a vase.