How about maybe the biggest country success of any mainstream singer?
Garth Brooks sold over 170 million records, beating Kenny's 100 million.
Not sure how this applies to either SSS's comment or mine. I think any country fan would agree that Garth's records, no matter how much he borrowed from rock and folk music, are all country. If he hit the pop charts, it was just spillover from his country success.
Kenny, on the other hand, started out in pop/rock (Just Dropped in, Something's Burning, Ruby) with the First Edition and crossed over to country in his solo career. But even then, only Lucille sounds like a typical country record to me.
How about maybe the biggest country success of any mainstream singer?
Garth Brooks sold over 170 million records, beating Kenny's 100 million.
Not sure how this applies to either SSS's comment or mine. I think any country fan would agree that Garth's records, no matter how much he borrowed from rock and folk music, are all country. If he hit the pop charts, it was just spillover from his country success.
Kenny, on the other hand, started out in pop/rock (Just Dropped in, Something's Burning, Ruby) with the First Edition and crossed over to country in his solo career. But even then, only Lucille sounds like a typical country record to me.
Garth Brooks sold over 170 million records, beating Kenny's 100 million.
Not sure how this applies to either SSS's comment or mine. I think any country fan would agree that Garth's records, no matter how much he borrowed from rock and folk music, are all country. If he hit the pop charts, it was just spillover from his country success.
Kenny, on the other hand, started out in pop/rock (Just Dropped in, Something's Burning, Ruby) with the First Edition and crossed over to country in his solo career. But even then, only Lucille sounds like a typical country record to me.
The line between country and pop is very fuzzy.
It wasn't that fuzzy until Dolly Parton, Glen Campbell, Shania Twain, Faith Hill, Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift and even Olivia Newton-John came along.
Not sure how this applies to either SSS's comment or mine. I think any country fan would agree that Garth's records, no matter how much he borrowed from rock and folk music, are all country. If he hit the pop charts, it was just spillover from his country success.
Kenny, on the other hand, started out in pop/rock (Just Dropped in, Something's Burning, Ruby) with the First Edition and crossed over to country in his solo career. But even then, only Lucille sounds like a typical country record to me.
The line between country and pop is very fuzzy.
It wasn't that fuzzy until Dolly Parton, Glen Campbell, Shania Twain, Faith Hill, Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift and even Olivia Newton-John came along.
By grouping those artists together, you've proven you don't know shit about country music.
It wasn't that fuzzy until Dolly Parton, Glen Campbell, Shania Twain, Faith Hill, Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift and even Olivia Newton-John came along.
By grouping those artists together, you've proven you don't know shit about country music.
Really? Which of those artists did not have their roots in country and/or did not have mainstream success?
Re: RIP Kenny Rogers
Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:54 pm
by Bob78164
When I saw this thread, my first thought was the former MLB pitcher. --Bob
It wasn't that fuzzy until Dolly Parton, Glen Campbell, Shania Twain, Faith Hill, Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift and even Olivia Newton-John came along.
By grouping those artists together, you've proven you don't know shit about country music.
Really? Which of those artists did not have their roots in country and/or did not have mainstream success?
Dolly, Glen, and Faith never left their country roots; they had crossover hits. Shania crossed the line into pop. Carrie went way over the line as has Taylor. Olivia's "country" hits weren't really country; they all hit the pop charts simultaneously.
By grouping those artists together, you've proven you don't know shit about country music.
Really? Which of those artists did not have their roots in country and/or did not have mainstream success?
Dolly, Glen, and Faith never left their country roots; they had crossover hits. Shania crossed the line into pop. Carrie went way over the line as has Taylor. Olivia's "country" hits weren't really country; they all hit the pop charts simultaneously.
The question was, "Which of those artists did not have their roots in country and/or did not have mainstream success?"
Re: RIP Kenny Rogers
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:44 am
by kroxquo
I'll be the first to admit that I really don't know much about country music, but my wife was raised on it and she always has the radio in the car tuned to the country top 40 station. When I listen to it, I am often baffled about what is the distinction between country and pop. Carrie Underwood, Lady Antebellum, and several others all have the electric guitars and orchestrations of pop or rock and, apart from the steel guitar usually thrown into the mix, sound indistinguishable. Can someone tell me - what makes something a country song apart from the artist saying they are?
Re: RIP Kenny Rogers
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:18 am
by mrkelley23
krox, you deserve a more thoughtful answer to your question, but in the 21st century, it seems to me like it's more of a marketing decision than anything.
Take the case of "Old Town Road" by Lil Nas X. It has many elements of a country song, or at least crossover, but Nashville was resistant to call it a country song, and despite it being one of the most popular songs in the country, it didn't place on the country charts until Lil Nas X added Billy Ray Cyrus for a version. Then it was a smash, on all charts. If you listen to the two versions side by side, you'll probably agree that Billy Ray didn't add much of anything to the song, other than his name.
Many folks contended that the country establishment's initial resistance was due to the fact that Lil Nas X is an out gay black man. I don't know if that's true, or if it's just the case of needing an established name like Cyrus to add legitimacy to a first-time performer. But it does get at the heart of what country fans call country.
In the 50s and 60s, there was a much sharper line between pop/rock and "country and western." (I don't remember hearing it referred to as just "country" until the 1980s or so). Even the crossover hits in the 60s and early 70s were still sung by country artists, with recognizable southern accents and nasal twangs typical of the country sound at that time. (interesting side note: While researching this post, I discovered that Willie Nelson's song "Crazy," as sung by Patsy Cline, is considered by many to be the first country-pop crossover hit) .
By the mid-70s, with the emergence of the sound of the Eagles, Linda Ronstadt, and others, the lines got very blurry. There were still plenty of songs that "crossed over" to the pop charts, and some that went the other way -- that's why esto's point about Olivia Newton-John is a good one. She never attempted to be country, but her label marketed her songs as crossovers to broaden her market. Elvis Presley and Kenny Rogers are two other examples of artists, not just songs, who started their careers in rock/pop, but then found success on the country charts later.
Since then, the definition of country seems to be more about subtle differences: steel guitar is usually a dead giveaway, southern accents while singing, subject matter of the lyrics, and/or a little yodel-y twang to the voice. It's almost like Potter Stewart's famous comment in the Supreme Court's obscenity case in the 60s: "I know it when I see it." Or, in this case, hear it.
I'm linking Brad Paisley's song "This is Country Music" below. He attempts to talk about some of the lyric differences and attitude differences, and I think he has a point.
Re: RIP Kenny Rogers
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:34 am
by frogman042
Here is Steve Goodman's/John Prine's take on country and western music:
Re: RIP Kenny Rogers
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:53 am
by mrkelley23
Never even thought to look up the Steve Goodman version of it, though I knew it was his. I've only ever listened to the David Allen Coe version. But that song is more of a self-deprecating inside joke, where Paisley's is more of a thump-your-chest boast. Either way, they get big reactions from country crowds.
I'll be the first to admit that I really don't know much about country music, but my wife was raised on it and she always has the radio in the car tuned to the country top 40 station. When I listen to it, I am often baffled about what is the distinction between country and pop. Carrie Underwood, Lady Antebellum, and several others all have the electric guitars and orchestrations of pop or rock and, apart from the steel guitar usually thrown into the mix, sound indistinguishable. Can someone tell me - what makes something a country song apart from the artist saying they are?
Absolutely nothing.
I listen to The Highway channel on Sirius XM which is "today's country" and am shocked at what is called "country". Sometimes I flip to Y2Country which is the hits from the first decade of this millennium.
krox, you deserve a more thoughtful answer to your question, but in the 21st century, it seems to me like it's more of a marketing decision than anything.
Take the case of "Old Town Road" by Lil Nas X. It has many elements of a country song, or at least crossover, but Nashville was resistant to call it a country song, and despite it being one of the most popular songs in the country, it didn't place on the country charts until Lil Nas X added Billy Ray Cyrus for a version. Then it was a smash, on all charts. If you listen to the two versions side by side, you'll probably agree that Billy Ray didn't add much of anything to the song, other than his name.
Many folks contended that the country establishment's initial resistance was due to the fact that Lil Nas X is an out gay black man. I don't know if that's true, or if it's just the case of needing an established name like Cyrus to add legitimacy to a first-time performer. But it does get at the heart of what country fans call country.
In the 50s and 60s, there was a much sharper line between pop/rock and "country and western." (I don't remember hearing it referred to as just "country" until the 1980s or so). Even the crossover hits in the 60s and early 70s were still sung by country artists, with recognizable southern accents and nasal twangs typical of the country sound at that time. (interesting side note: While researching this post, I discovered that Willie Nelson's song "Crazy," as sung by Patsy Cline, is considered by many to be the first country-pop crossover hit) .
By the mid-70s, with the emergence of the sound of the Eagles, Linda Ronstadt, and others, the lines got very blurry. There were still plenty of songs that "crossed over" to the pop charts, and some that went the other way -- that's why esto's point about Olivia Newton-John is a good one. She never attempted to be country, but her label marketed her songs as crossovers to broaden her market. Elvis Presley and Kenny Rogers are two other examples of artists, not just songs, who started their careers in rock/pop, but then found success on the country charts later.
Since then, the definition of country seems to be more about subtle differences: steel guitar is usually a dead giveaway, southern accents while singing, subject matter of the lyrics, and/or a little yodel-y twang to the voice. It's almost like Potter Stewart's famous comment in the Supreme Court's obscenity case in the 60s: "I know it when I see it." Or, in this case, hear it.
I'm linking Brad Paisley's song "This is Country Music" below. He attempts to talk about some of the lyric differences and attitude differences, and I think he has a point.
I remember in the 70s when Emmylou Harris, Hank Williams Jr, and others were being called not really country artists.
KFAT radio in "Gilroy, the garlic capital of the world" played them but no AM country stations would.
