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My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:47 pm
by kroxquo
I have spent a lot of time today listening to the "debate" about impeachment and I have come to a conclusion that may surprise people who know me. I am not at all sure that if I was in Congress that I would vote in favor of impeachment. Don't get me wrong - do I think that the President tried to use his power to influence Ukraine to investigate the Biden family so that he would benefit in the 2020 election? Absolutely I do, but I don't think it was part of a grand scheme because frankly I don't think the President is bright enough to plan ahead to do something like that. It was just one more off the cuff remark that he is notorious for. But there is something about this that is really bothering me. I have been saying from the beginning that from a political standpoint, impeachment is a huge mistake; when the President is acqutted in the Senate (as we all know he will be), he will be able to say that is a full vindication of his claims of the process being a hoax (whether that is the case or not). This will further motivate his base and make him harder to beat next year. But my misgivings are more than political. I remember the day after the election in 2016, I said to Karen that I had had candidates lose before but never before had I felt that the future of the Republic was endangered. I still believe that. But I can't deny that this process is deeply partisan; that if it were Republicans impeaching Barack Obama, that Democrats would be making the same arguments as Republicans are now. So this is where my misgivings come from. We have reached a state where partisanship is a stronger force than doing what is right. That the Congress may be starting down an easily foreseeable road where the incumbent is impeached everytime the opposition party gains control. Under normal circumstances, I would say that this is a clear case; but the implications for the future are deeply troubling to me.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:51 pm
by Beebs52
Well said.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:16 pm
by jarnon
kroxquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:47 pm
It was just one more off the cuff remark that he is notorious for.
But he has a deep-seated need to defend even these haphazard remarks. Look what happened when he said Hurricane Dorian threatened Alabama. He could have dismissed it as based on an outdated forecast and everyone would have forgotten. But he defended it for days, altered a map with a Sharpie, and forced NOAA to back him up. Now he keeps insisting his phone call was "perfect," and any Republican who's even a bit critical is labeled a traitor.
The voters wanted an unconventional, reality-show president, and that's what they got. It's a worldwide phenomenon. In Ukraine they elected a comedian who played the president on a TV comedy. And they could see what's happening here under Trump. Then they gave his party (named after the TV show) a huge legislative victory. I keep expecting a backlash and a return to dull, stodgy presidents, but what do I know? I must be too old to get it.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:43 pm
by Bob78164
kroxquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:47 pm
I have spent a lot of time today listening to the "debate" about impeachment and I have come to a conclusion that may surprise people who know me. I am not at all sure that if I was in Congress that I would vote in favor of impeachment. Don't get me wrong - do I think that the President tried to use his power to influence Ukraine to investigate the Biden family so that he would benefit in the 2020 election? Absolutely I do, but I don't think it was part of a grand scheme because frankly I don't think the President is bright enough to plan ahead to do something like that. It was just one more off the cuff remark that he is notorious for. But there is something about this that is really bothering me. I have been saying from the beginning that from a political standpoint, impeachment is a huge mistake; when the President is acqutted in the Senate (as we all know he will be), he will be able to say that is a full vindication of his claims of the process being a hoax (whether that is the case or not). This will further motivate his base and make him harder to beat next year. But my misgivings are more than political. I remember the day after the election in 2016, I said to Karen that I had had candidates lose before but never before had I felt that the future of the Republic was endangered. I still believe that. But I can't deny that this process is deeply partisan; that if it were Republicans impeaching Barack Obama, that Democrats would be making the same arguments as Republicans are now. So this is where my misgivings come from. We have reached a state where partisanship is a stronger force than doing what is right. That the Congress may be starting down an easily foreseeable road where the incumbent is impeached everytime the opposition party gains control. Under normal circumstances, I would say that this is a clear case; but the implications for the future are deeply troubling to me.
Honestly, Krox, I think that ship sailed when the Republicans decided to impeach Bill Clinton. And I can't imagine they'll be more restrained in the future. So the House may as well do what's right here and trust the American people to know the difference.
The American people will decide whether they're okay with how their Members of the House vote today and Speaker Pelosi has made it clear that she is not attempting to whip the vote. Ultimately, for better or worse, we'll get the government we deserve. --Bob
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:28 pm
by kroxquo
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:43 pm
Ultimately, for better or worse, we'll get the government we deserve. --Bob
Since this is the electorate that voted for him, that's what frightens me.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:10 pm
by Beebs52
Some feel/felt the same way for the alternative(s). So there's that, but y'all don't unnerstand nuance.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:54 pm
by Bob78164
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:10 pm
Some feel/felt the same way for the alternative(s). So there's that, but y'all don't unnerstand nuance.
I understand it just fine. Republicans think that people who disagree with them on policy are a threat to the Republic, so they feel justified in doing anything and everything necessary to maintain their hold on power. That's why they've maintained a scorched-earth campaign against the increasingly popular Affordable Care Act for more than ten years.
Democrats trust the process when it comes to policy, but believe that an aspirant to federal office who invites foreign interference in our elections, and then tries to cover it up, is a threat to the Republic. --Bob
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
by Beebs52
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:54 pm
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:10 pm
Some feel/felt the same way for the alternative(s). So there's that, but y'all don't unnerstand nuance.
I understand it just fine. Republicans think that people who disagree with them on policy are a threat to the Republic, so they feel justified in doing anything and everything necessary to maintain their hold on power. That's why they've maintained a scorched-earth campaign against the increasingly popular Affordable Care Act for more than ten years.
Democrats trust the process when it comes to policy, but believe that an aspirant to federal office who invites foreign interference in our elections, and then tries to cover it up, is a threat to the Republic. --Bob
No. You're wrong.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:03 pm
by Beebs52
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:54 pm
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:10 pm
Some feel/felt the same way for the alternative(s). So there's that, but y'all don't unnerstand nuance.
I understand it just fine. Republicans think that people who disagree with them on policy are a threat to the Republic, so they feel justified in doing anything and everything necessary to maintain their hold on power. That's why they've maintained a scorched-earth campaign against the increasingly popular Affordable Care Act for more than ten years.
Democrats trust the process when it comes to policy, but believe that an aspirant to federal office who invites foreign interference in our elections, and then tries to cover it up, is a threat to the Republic. --Bob
No. You're wrong.
Plus, you're incapable of agreeing on ANYTHING a Repub will say.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:20 pm
by Bob78164
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:54 pm
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:10 pm
Some feel/felt the same way for the alternative(s). So there's that, but y'all don't unnerstand nuance.
I understand it just fine. Republicans think that people who disagree with them on policy are a threat to the Republic, so they feel justified in doing anything and everything necessary to maintain their hold on power. That's why they've maintained a scorched-earth campaign against the increasingly popular Affordable Care Act for more than ten years.
Democrats trust the process when it comes to policy, but believe that an aspirant to federal office who invites foreign interference in our elections, and then tries to cover it up, is a threat to the Republic. --Bob
No. You're wrong.
The behavior of elected Republicans and those who support them says otherwise. --Bob
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:31 pm
by Beebs52
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:20 pm
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:54 pm
I understand it just fine. Republicans think that people who disagree with them on policy are a threat to the Republic, so they feel justified in doing anything and everything necessary to maintain their hold on power. That's why they've maintained a scorched-earth campaign against the increasingly popular Affordable Care Act for more than ten years.
Democrats trust the process when it comes to policy, but believe that an aspirant to federal office who invites foreign interference in our elections, and then tries to cover it up, is a threat to the Republic. --Bob
No. You're wrong.
The behavior of elected Republicans and those who support them says otherwise. --Bob
No. You're wrong.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:42 pm
by Bob78164
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:31 pm
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:20 pm
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
No. You're wrong.
The behavior of elected Republicans and those who support them says otherwise. --Bob
No. You're wrong.
I'll believe that when Donny's abuse of power to coerce a foreign government to invent dirt against a domestic political opponent starts costing him Republican votes. So far, not a one. Virtually every Republican who's opposing Donny's flagrant abuses of power is being driven from the Party instead. --Bob
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:44 pm
by Beebs52
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:42 pm
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:31 pm
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:20 pm
The behavior of elected Republicans and those who support them says otherwise. --Bob
No. You're wrong.
I'll believe that when Donny's abuse of power to coerce a foreign government to invent dirt against a domestic political opponent starts costing him Republican votes. So far, not a one. Virtually every Republican who's opposing Donny's flagrant abuses of power is being driven from the Party instead. --Bob
C'est la vie.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:12 pm
by flockofseagulls104
The bastard is impeached!
Stay tuned for part 2.
Can the Senate impeach the house?
Or as John Mclain would say: Want to go for double jeopardy where the scores can really change?
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:13 am
by Estonut
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:42 pm
I'll believe that when Donny's abuse of power to coerce a foreign government to invent dirt against a domestic political opponent ...
He did no such thing. The pertinent quotes that I see in the transcript are:
The President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it.
and
The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me.
If you are not imagining the coercion and request to invent dirt against an opponent, please cite where that was said, or even implied.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:25 am
by Bob78164
Estonut wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:13 am
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:42 pm
I'll believe that when Donny's abuse of power to coerce a foreign government to invent dirt against a domestic political opponent ...
He did no such thing. The pertinent quotes that I see in the transcript are:
The President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it.
and
The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me.
If you are not imagining the coercion and request to invent dirt against an opponent, please cite where that was said, or even implied.
The part where he held up Congressiionally approved aid until they did him that "favor."
The part where the Ukrainian government knew damn well that's why the aid was being held up.
And the part where he didn't give a rat's ass whether Ukraine actually conducted such an investigation. He just wanted one publicly announced.
And the part where Donny blocked the people with direct knowledge from testifying. And hid the verbatim transcript on a classified server.
And let's not forget -- the sworn testimony is that the reconstruction was not accurate and that the attempt to make it more accurate was rejected.
Personally I think Speaker Pelosi should hold off on delivering the articles of impeachment until the courts have held that Donny can't block people like Bolton from testifying. --Bob
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:57 am
by Estonut
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:25 am
Estonut wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:13 am
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:42 pm
I'll believe that when Donny's abuse of power to coerce a foreign government to invent dirt against a domestic political opponent ...
He did no such thing. The pertinent quotes that I see in the transcript are:
The President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it.
and
The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me.
If you are not imagining the coercion and request to invent dirt against an opponent, please cite where that was said, or even implied.
The part where he held up Congressiionally approved aid until they did him that "favor."
The part where the Ukrainian government knew damn well that's why the aid was being held up.
And the part where he didn't give a rat's ass whether Ukraine actually conducted such an investigation. He just wanted one publicly announced.
And the part where Donny blocked the people with direct knowledge from testifying. And hid the verbatim transcript on a classified server.
And let's not forget -- the sworn testimony is that the reconstruction was not accurate and that the attempt to make it more accurate was rejected.
Personally I think Speaker Pelosi should hold off on delivering the articles of impeachment until the courts have held that Donny can't block people like Bolton from testifying.
My mistake. I thought that competent lawyers require proof. I still do. I also noticed you failed to cite what I asked for.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:39 am
by kroxquo
Estonut wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:13 am
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:42 pm
I'll believe that when Donny's abuse of power to coerce a foreign government to invent dirt against a domestic political opponent ...
He did no such thing. The pertinent quotes that I see in the transcript are:
The President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it.
and
The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me.
If you are not imagining the coercion and request to invent dirt against an opponent, please cite where that was said, or even implied.
I'm not arguing one way or another, and I'm asking because I truly don't know, but do you know what the conversation was before the first quote above. The word "though" implies that it was in response to something said previously and that would clarify the context of the statement.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:17 am
by silverscreenselect
Estonut wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:57 am
My mistake. I thought that competent lawyers require proof. I still do. I also noticed you failed to cite what I asked for.
There was proof in the testimony of witnesses who heard the call and also had direct knowledge of the events that transpired before the call. And at least one of those witnesses testified that the "transcript" of the call was incomplete.
The evidence presented in the hearing would have been enough to get the case to any jury in this country.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:24 am
by flockofseagulls104
silverscreenselect wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:17 am
Estonut wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:57 am
My mistake. I thought that competent lawyers require proof. I still do. I also noticed you failed to cite what I asked for.
There was proof in the testimony of witnesses who heard the call and also had direct knowledge of the events that transpired before the call. And at least one of those witnesses testified that the "transcript" of the call was incomplete.
The evidence presented in the hearing would have been enough to get the case to any jury in this country.
What exactly was the crime committed?
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:11 am
by Bob78164
flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:24 am
silverscreenselect wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:17 am
Estonut wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:57 am
My mistake. I thought that competent lawyers require proof. I still do. I also noticed you failed to cite what I asked for.
There was proof in the testimony of witnesses who heard the call and also had direct knowledge of the events that transpired before the call. And at least one of those witnesses testified that the "transcript" of the call was incomplete.
The evidence presented in the hearing would have been enough to get the case to any jury in this country.
What exactly was the crime committed?
Extortion and solicitation of a bribe. --Bob
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:19 am
by jarnon
Pelosi is considering holding the articles of impeachment hostage until McConnell agrees to a fair trial. Meanwhile, the Supreme Court will decide the limits of executive privilege in 2020. That could determine whether Bolton and Mulvaney testify. So Trump's trial may be much later than January.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:31 am
by flockofseagulls104
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:11 am
flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:24 am
silverscreenselect wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:17 am
There was proof in the testimony of witnesses who heard the call and also had direct knowledge of the events that transpired before the call. And at least one of those witnesses testified that the "transcript" of the call was incomplete.
The evidence presented in the hearing would have been enough to get the case to any jury in this country.
What exactly was the crime committed?
Extortion and solicitation of a bribe. --Bob
Really, where are the articles of impeachment for that? Who exactly is the accuser? Has anyone said they were extorted? Has anyone said they were bribed? As far as I can see, President Zelensky has not claimed he was extorted or bribed. Nor has anyone else. In fact, he has stated publicly that he wasn't bribed, extorted or even pressured. Do you know of anyone who has been? Doesn't there have to be an accuser or a victim when a crime is committed? Can you extort someone or bribe someone who says they weren't extorted or bribed? If so, can't anyone, even you, be accused of bribery and extortion of anyone else in the world?
So, taking this further, shouldn't we sanction Ukraine because their President has lied to us and the world?
It doesn't really matter, you have impeached the bastard, something, bob-tel, you have clamored for since the day after the election. It will go nowhere, but you will go on harassing the bastard. It's your mission.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:52 am
by silverscreenselect
flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:31 am
As far as I can see, President Zelensky has not claimed he was extorted or bribed.
Victims of extortion have a tendency not to admit that, especially when the person doing the extorting remains in a position of power.
And again, it's not just Bob and I and Adam Schiff claiming that Trump has committed impeachable actions. A large number of legal experts have said the same thing (including a number of Republicans and other conservatives). Even if you can find one or two to support your point of view doesn't mean that there wasn't ample evidence presented in the impeachment proceedings and ample grounds for impeaching Trump.
When Rudy Giuliani and Sean Hannity are your legal experts, you've got a problem Flock.
Re: My thoughts on impeachment
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:10 pm
by silverscreenselect
flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:31 am
Really, where are the articles of impeachment for that? Who exactly is the accuser? Has anyone said they were extorted? Has anyone said they were bribed? As far as I can see, President Zelensky has not claimed he was extorted or bribed. Nor has anyone else. In fact, he has stated publicly that he wasn't bribed, extorted or even pressured. Do you know of anyone who has been? Doesn't there have to be an accuser or a victim when a crime is committed? Can you extort someone or bribe someone who says they weren't extorted or bribed? If so, can't anyone, even you, be accused of bribery and extortion of anyone else in the world?
So, taking this further, shouldn't we sanction Ukraine because their President has lied to us and the world?
Here's an expert with first hand knowledge who agrees with you, Flock
Putin says Trump was impeached for fabricated reasons