Mueller has delivered his report

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BackInTex
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#151 Post by BackInTex » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:37 am

Bob78164 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote: I BELIEVE Mueller when he reports that Russia started looking for the e-mails hours after Donny asked them to. --Bob
Good. I believe that to. No reason to not believe it. But, the Russians previously looked at the DNC and other places.

Do you believe Mueller when he reports there is no evidence of cooperation within the Trump campaign? Is Mueller smarter than you? Forget that, we know that answer. Mueller investigated TWO YEARS and concluded no collusion. So like all intellectually honest people, he understands that the Trump line was a joke, in jest, and that the timing was coincidental.
You obviously haven't read the report. He didn't say there was no evidence of cooperation. He said he couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt the concerted effort that is required for criminal conduct. He was quite clear that Donny's campaign knew about and welcomed Russia's assistance. And he specifically addressed Donny's request and said that although it was evidence of concerted effort, it wasn't enough by itself to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Who are you going to believe? Donny, or your own lying ears? --Bob
I did not read all 400+ pages, but I read enough. Perhaps "no evidence" is a little absolute but he also did not conclude there was not enough evidence to prove it "beyond a reasonable doubt". That was not his job, to issue a verdict, was it? He only needed to find enough evidence to convince a grand jury there is the possibility of convincing a jury.

There are two possibilities:

1) There was no collusion
2) Trump is the greatest mastermind and leader the world has ever seen to be able to collude with a foreign power such as Russia and to have such a tight, well oiled, an loyal organization that it withstood two full years of intense and and sometimes questionable investigative practices to keep enough evidence hidden that it could not be proven.

Not even I would agree with #2.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#152 Post by Estonut » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:25 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:The same people who were apoplectic because Bill Clinton (who had no power at all) had a conversation with Loretta Lynch (who wasn't running the investigation) about their grandchildren (which had nothing to do with the investigation) ...
Why would they clear the plane if they were having an innocent conversation about their grandchildren? This was a big, fat Clinton lie, just as was Hillary's private server "for her convenience!"
And yet you seem okay with Donny actually firing the guy who was investigating him, after trying to get him to pledge his personal loyalty to Donny.
Please cite where I have defended this behavior.
Bob78164 wrote:And you seem just as okay with Donny trying to fire the second guy who was investigating him.
Please cite where I have defended this behavior.
Bob78164 wrote:And for someone who likes to criticize others for stating things as fact, calling this a "big fat Clinton lie" is one helluva stretch. Unless you were there, of course.
Answer the question posed, "Why would they clear the plane if they were having an innocent conversation about their grandchildren?" The only answer that makes sense to a normal person would be that they were not being truthful about the matters discussed.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#153 Post by Bob78164 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:44 am

Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Estonut wrote:Why would they clear the plane if they were having an innocent conversation about their grandchildren? This was a big, fat Clinton lie, just as was Hillary's private server "for her convenience!"
And yet you seem okay with Donny actually firing the guy who was investigating him, after trying to get him to pledge his personal loyalty to Donny.
Please cite where I have defended this behavior.
Bob78164 wrote:And you seem just as okay with Donny trying to fire the second guy who was investigating him.
Please cite where I have defended this behavior.
Bob78164 wrote:And for someone who likes to criticize others for stating things as fact, calling this a "big fat Clinton lie" is one helluva stretch. Unless you were there, of course.
Answer the question posed, "Why would they clear the plane if they were having an innocent conversation about their grandchildren?" The only answer that makes sense to a normal person would be that they were not being truthful about the matters discussed.
I haven't seen a single report that says they cleared the plane.

And if they really wanted to have a conversation that was both private and illicit, they wouldn't have had it in person where the fact of their meeting was exposed to public view. They'd have talked on the phone and no one would ever have known that they'd had a conversation at all.

I said that you "seem" to be okay with Donny's actions because I'm inferring it. Contrast how I referred in this thread to the views of others. The difference in my language when referring to you was deliberate. It's an inference I'm drawing because as far as I can tell you haven't uttered a word of criticism here about Donny's blatant acts of obstruction of justice, while showing no hesitation to excoriate the Clintons based on "facts" that as far as I can tell aren't even true. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#154 Post by jarnon » Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:31 pm

In an epilogue to the Mueller investigation, overshadowed by recent news, Roger Stone has been convicted of lying to Congress, witness tampering and obstruction of justice.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#155 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:42 pm

jarnon wrote:In an epilogue to the Mueller investigation, overshadowed by recent news, Roger Stone has been convicted of lying to Congress, witness tampering and obstruction of justice.
I'm not so sure it's just an epilogue. If Republicans are correct that firsthand testimony is material to the impeachment investigation regarding whether Donny was using American foreign policy as leverage to solicit a bribe from the government of Ukraine, I don't know how you avoid the conclusion that by attempting to block the people with firsthand knowledge from testifying, Donny is committing obstruction of justice. --Bob
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#156 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:07 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
jarnon wrote:In an epilogue to the Mueller investigation, overshadowed by recent news, Roger Stone has been convicted of lying to Congress, witness tampering and obstruction of justice.
I'm not so sure it's just an epilogue. If Republicans are correct that firsthand testimony is material to the impeachment investigation regarding whether Donny was using American foreign policy as leverage to solicit a bribe from the government of Ukraine, I don't know how you avoid the conclusion that by attempting to block the people with firsthand knowledge from testifying, Donny is committing obstruction of justice. --Bob
And let's not forget witness tampering. If an "ordinary" criminal defendant set off a tweetstorm like Trump did today while a witness was testifying, he would be behind bars very quickly.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#157 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:38 pm

Judge Reggie Walton, appointed by President George W. Bush, had this to say (pages 18-19) about Barr's public accounts of the Mueller Report:
Judge Walton wrote:As noted earlier, the Court has reviewed the redacted version of the Mueller Report, Attorney General Barr’s representations made during his April 18, 2019 press conference, and Attorney General Barr’s April 18, 2019 letter. And, the Court cannot reconcile certain public representations made by Attorney General Barr with the findings in the Mueller Report. The inconsistencies between Attorney General Barr’s statements, made at a time when the public did not have access to the redacted version of the Mueller Report to assess the veracity of his statements, and portions of the redacted version of the Mueller Report that conflict with those statements cause the Court to seriously question whether Attorney General Barr made a calculated attempt to influence public discourse about the Mueller Report in favor of President Trump despite certain findings in the redacted version of the Mueller Report to the contrary.

These circumstances generally, and Attorney General Barr’s lack of candor specifically [emphasis mine], call into question Attorney General Barr’s credibility and in turn, the Department’s representation that “all of the information redacted from the version of the [Mueller] Report released by [ ] Attorney General [Barr]” is protected from disclosure by its claimed FOIA exemptions. Brinkmann Decl. ¶ 11 (emphasis added). In the Court’s view, Attorney General Barr’s representation that the Mueller Report would be “subject only to those redactions required by law or by compelling law enforcement, national security, or personal privacy interests” cannot be credited without the Court’s independent verification in light of Attorney General Barr’s conduct and misleading public statements about the findings in the Mueller Report, id., Ex. 7 (April 18, 2019 Letter) at 3, and it would be disingenuous for the Court to conclude that the redactions of the Mueller Report pursuant to the FOIA are not tainted by Attorney General Barr’s actions and representations. And, despite the Department’s representation that it “review[ed] the full unredacted [Mueller] Report for disclosure pursuant to the FOIA,” Brinkmann Decl. ¶ 11, the Court cannot ignore that the Department’s withholdings under the FOIA exemptions mirror the redactions made pursuant to Attorney General Barr’s guidance, which cause the Court to question whether the redactions are self-serving and were made to support, or at the very least to not undermine, Attorney General Barr’s public statements and whether the Department engaged in post-hoc rationalization to justify Attorney General Barr’s positions.
In other words, Judge Walton, appointed by a Republican President, is calling the Attorney General of the United States a liar. It is difficult to overstate how big a deal this is. An attorney's -- any attorney's -- stock in trade is his credibility. So for a judge to publicly question any attorney's credibility is a huge blow to his career. When that attorney is the Attorney General, it can and should destroy his effectiveness. --Bob
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#158 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:45 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:38 pm
So for a judge to publicly question any attorney's credibility is a huge blow to his career. When that attorney is the Attorney General, it can and should destroy his effectiveness. --Bob
Barr's "effectiveness" consists solely of the degree to which he kisses Trump's butt. As long as he does that, he's safe from Trump, and that's all that matters.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#159 Post by jarnon » Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:17 pm

The Office of Legal Counsel's memo on whether Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice has finally been released.

OLC memo

Bottom line: not guilty

I wonder why it took so long. I think Trump would want to tweet it immediately. Maybe DOJ waited until every other Russia-related investigation and prosecution were finished.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#160 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:36 pm

jarnon wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:17 pm
The Office of Legal Counsel's memo on whether Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice has finally been released.

OLC memo

Bottom line: not guilty

I wonder why it took so long. I think Trump would want to tweet it immediately. Maybe DOJ waited until every other Russia-related investigation and prosecution were finished.
Suffice it to say that numerous legal scholars have come to the opposite conclusion from Trump's Justice Department lawyers. By the way, Stephen Engel was later placed by Trump on the short list of candidates for the next Supreme Court vacancy (which would up going to Amy Coney Barrett).
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