New NFL National Anthem Rules

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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#51 Post by Bob78164 » Sun May 27, 2018 12:37 am

BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:And no, we do not stand when judges enter the courtroom. We stand for juries to honor their service.
Really? Because the courts I've been in (Texas and Kansas), even as a jury member, we are seated, then instructed by the bailiff "all rise" as the judge enters the courtroom. Is the protocol different in California? Even in federal courts?
The protocol is different in California. Many judges here don't even have attorneys stand while they're addressing the court. Jurors never enter the courtroom here until everyone else is in place. --Bob
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#52 Post by Estonut » Sun May 27, 2018 12:48 am

silverscreenselect wrote:Here's an unfiltered opinion of crowd behavior at several NFL games after the original Trump pronouncement on the issue.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/01/spor ... otest.html
You and I have differing opinions on what "unfiltered" means. This is one person's account of what he saw (or chose to see) at one game. It is not even clear whether he attended the Chargers game in person or not. He certainly did not attend the others on which he reported. This account if filtered by what he may have seen on TV and, a second time, by his own account of those telecasts and what he was looking for at the game he may have attended in person.

His experience does not match my own in several ways:
• When I've arrived at Angel Stadium after being delayed by traffic, they have always held the gates and the crowds from the tunnels until the National Anthem is over. They stop the escalators and food & drink sales for the duration.
• My personal experience at, perhaps, thousands of professional sporting events, is that I have NEVER heard a fan, either on our side or the opposing side, substitute any team name for "the brave."
• On the rare occasions that a huge flag has been unfurled and "waved" on the field, it has NEVER been "wadded up hastily to make way for a game about to start."
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#53 Post by Estonut » Sun May 27, 2018 6:28 am

Here's an article about a crowd who INSISTED on hearing the National Anthem.

I am not under the delusion that this represents all crowds, just as the previous article doesn't.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#54 Post by silverscreenselect » Sun May 27, 2018 6:35 am

Estonut wrote: He certainly did not attend the others on which he reported. This account if filtered by what he may have seen on TV and, a second time, by his own account of those telecasts and what he was looking for at the game he may have attended in person.
Reporting was contributed by Ben Shpigel from East Rutherford, N.J.; Bill Pennington from Foxborough, Mass.; Ken Belson from Las Vegas; Ben Rothenberg from Baltimore; and Lisa Maria Garza from Arlington, Tex.
No, one reporter wasn't at all those games, but those who were contributed their findings to the article.

And for that matter, your account may well be filtered by what you happen to remember about the games you attended.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#55 Post by tlynn78 » Sun May 27, 2018 10:17 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:And no, we do not stand when judges enter the courtroom. We stand for juries to honor their service.
Really? Because the courts I've been in (Texas and Kansas), even as a jury member, we are seated, then instructed by the bailiff "all rise" as the judge enters the courtroom. Is the protocol different in California? Even in federal courts?
The protocol is different in California. Many judges here don't even have attorneys stand while they're addressing the court. Jurors never enter the courtroom here until everyone else is in place. --Bob
Everyone stands for the judges here. If an attorney fails to stand (without leave of the Court) when addressing the Court, he or she would most certainly be reprimanded.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#56 Post by BackInTex » Sun May 27, 2018 11:31 pm

tlynn78 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
Really? Because the courts I've been in (Texas and Kansas), even as a jury member, we are seated, then instructed by the bailiff "all rise" as the judge enters the courtroom. Is the protocol different in California? Even in federal courts?
The protocol is different in California. Many judges here don't even have attorneys stand while they're addressing the court. Jurors never enter the courtroom here until everyone else is in place. --Bob
Everyone stands for the judges here. If an attorney fails to stand (without leave of the Court) when addressing the Court, he or she would most certainly be reprimanded.
Says a lot for California.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#57 Post by Estonut » Mon May 28, 2018 1:45 am

silverscreenselect wrote:And for that matter, your account may well be filtered by what you happen to remember about the games you attended.
It could be, but I'm not sure how. I remember with certainty what I was asked to do, what I have heard and what I have seen. The most unfiltered information one can possibly receive is what one experiences in person.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#58 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon May 28, 2018 8:06 am

Estonut wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:And for that matter, your account may well be filtered by what you happen to remember about the games you attended.
It could be, but I'm not sure how. I remember with certainty what I was asked to do, what I have heard and what I have seen. The most unfiltered information one can possibly receive is what one experiences in person.
How Many of Your Memories Are Fake?
All memory, as McGaugh explained, is colored with bits of life experiences. When people recall, “they are reconstructing,” he said. “It doesn't mean it’s totally false. It means that they’re telling a story about themselves and they’re integrating things they really do remember in detail, with things that are generally true.”

Twenty people with [documented photographic] memory were shown slideshows featuring a man stealing a wallet from a woman while pretending to help her, and then a man breaking into a car with a credit card and stealing $1 bills and necklaces. Later, they read two narratives about those slideshows containing misinformation. When later asked about the events, the superior memory subjects indicated the erroneous facts as truth at about the same rate as people with normal memory.

In another test, subjects were told there was news footage of the plane crash of United 93 in Pennsylvania on September 11, 2001, even though no actual footage exists. When asked whether they remembered having seen the footage before, 20 percent of subjects with Highly Superior Autobiographical Memory indicated they had, compared to 29 percent of people with regular memory.

“Even though this study is about people with superior memory, this study should really make people stop and think about their own memory,” Patihis said. “Gone are the days when people thought that [only] maybe 20, 30 or 40 percent of people are vulnerable to memory distortions.”
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#59 Post by Estonut » Mon May 28, 2018 5:55 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Estonut wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:And for that matter, your account may well be filtered by what you happen to remember about the games you attended.
It could be, but I'm not sure how. I remember with certainty what I was asked to do, what I have heard and what I have seen. The most unfiltered information one can possibly receive is what one experiences in person.
How Many of Your Memories Are Fake?
All memory, as McGaugh explained, is colored with bits of life experiences. When people recall, “they are reconstructing,” he said. “It doesn't mean it’s totally false. It means that they’re telling a story about themselves and they’re integrating things they really do remember in detail, with things that are generally true.”

Twenty people with [documented photographic] memory were shown slideshows featuring a man stealing a wallet from a woman while pretending to help her, and then a man breaking into a car with a credit card and stealing $1 bills and necklaces. Later, they read two narratives about those slideshows containing misinformation. When later asked about the events, the superior memory subjects indicated the erroneous facts as truth at about the same rate as people with normal memory.

In another test, subjects were told there was news footage of the plane crash of United 93 in Pennsylvania on September 11, 2001, even though no actual footage exists. When asked whether they remembered having seen the footage before, 20 percent of subjects with Highly Superior Autobiographical Memory indicated they had, compared to 29 percent of people with regular memory.

“Even though this study is about people with superior memory, this study should really make people stop and think about their own memory,” Patihis said. “Gone are the days when people thought that [only] maybe 20, 30 or 40 percent of people are vulnerable to memory distortions.”
I had a feeling you would try to relate this to eyewitness-type false memories. That's exactly why I said, "I remember with certainty what I was asked to do, what I have heard and what I have seen."

How could I possibly mis-remember whether or not all movement at gates, escalators and snack bars was stopped when I've been at Angel Stadium? I have been held in each of these scenarios, along with everyone else, but no one voiced any opposition to this.

I have noticed, many times, people substituting another team for "the home team" in the "root, root, root for..." line of "Take Me Out to the Ballgame." I am quite sure I (and the surrounding crowd) would have noticed (and remembered), had someone substituted a team name for "home of the brave" in the national anthem. Someone, somewhere (out of my earshot) may have done so at Angel Stadium, but the crowd would have let them have it and it has never been as wide-spread as mentioned in the article (at Angel Stadium).

There is absolutely no way I could witness (along with the rest of the crowd) the HUGE flag being "wadded up" and disrespectfully "tossed aside" in order to start the game and NOT remember it. If this ever happened in any stadium, SOMEONE would have caught it on film and many, many people would have gone nuts over that.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#60 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue May 29, 2018 3:35 am

Estonut wrote: There is absolutely no way I could witness (along with the rest of the crowd) the HUGE flag being "wadded up" and disrespectfully "tossed aside" in order to start the game and NOT remember it.
The sports world’s trend toward big productions often overwhelms out the nobility and solemnity of the anthem. For example, the code also says that the flag “should never be carried flat or horizontally.” The code does not specify if it is appropriate for a flag 100 yards long to be held parallel to the ground, or shaken by the people holding it when the anthem gets to lyric “that star-spangled banner yet wave,” and then wadded up hastily to make way for a game about to start.
Well, apparently, from the time you read this article until the time wrote this post, you couldn't remember that the words "tossed aside" don't appear in connection with the comment about the wadded-up giant flag.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#61 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue May 29, 2018 3:39 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Estonut wrote: There is absolutely no way I could witness (along with the rest of the crowd) the HUGE flag being "wadded up" and disrespectfully "tossed aside" in order to start the game and NOT remember it.
The sports world’s trend toward big productions often overwhelms out the nobility and solemnity of the anthem. For example, the code also says that the flag “should never be carried flat or horizontally.” The code does not specify if it is appropriate for a flag 100 yards long to be held parallel to the ground, or shaken by the people holding it when the anthem gets to lyric “that star-spangled banner yet wave,” and then wadded up hastily to make way for a game about to start.
Well, apparently, from the time you read this article until the time wrote this post, you misremembered the wording of the article and added the words "tossed aside" in connection with the comment about the wadded-up giant flag.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#62 Post by Estonut » Tue May 29, 2018 5:20 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Estonut wrote: There is absolutely no way I could witness (along with the rest of the crowd) the HUGE flag being "wadded up" and disrespectfully "tossed aside" in order to start the game and NOT remember it.
The sports world’s trend toward big productions often overwhelms out the nobility and solemnity of the anthem. For example, the code also says that the flag “should never be carried flat or horizontally.” The code does not specify if it is appropriate for a flag 100 yards long to be held parallel to the ground, or shaken by the people holding it when the anthem gets to lyric “that star-spangled banner yet wave,” and then wadded up hastily to make way for a game about to start.
Well, apparently, from the time you read this article until the time wrote this post, you couldn't remember that the words "tossed aside" don't appear in connection with the comment about the wadded-up giant flag.
That was my interpretation of the statement. They made it sound as if the flag were being treated as trash. So your interpretation is that it was wadded up hastily and then, what, respectfully and solemnly carried off the field so the game could start?
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#63 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue May 29, 2018 7:47 am

Estonut wrote: That was my interpretation of the statement.
You put the words "tossed aside" in quotes, which implies that it appeared in the original article. In any event, you've taken an article that commented on what reporters observed at specific games and spun your interpretation of them saying something they clearly did not.

As for your comments about substituting language in the singing of the national anthem:

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-co ... 73896.html
In Kansas City, fans have changed the end of “The Star-Spangled Banner” to say “home of the Chiefs” rather than “home of the brave.” It’s become so common that you’ll hear it at Kauffman Stadium before Royals games, and elsewhere. Kansas coach Bill Self spoke out in 2012 about the student section singing “Chiefs” at Allen Fieldhouse. I don’t think it’s anything we should be proud about as students to carry that on, because I don’t see the place for it when you are honoring your country,” Self said.

For the most part, fans in Kansas City don’t seem concerned that the language of the national anthem is being changed. Baltimore fans have a tradition of yelling out “O!” near the end of the national anthem as a way of showing support for the Orioles. It comes here: “O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave,"

In Chicago, fans do even more screaming during the national anthem at Blackhawks games. The noise gets louder as the song continues. NBC Sports said the practice began in the mid-80s. This has been a commonly accepted custom.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#64 Post by jarnon » Tue May 29, 2018 9:10 am

SSS probably doesn’t notice that his hometown fans sing “home of the Braves.” They most likely think those are the actual lyrics. It’s obvious to visiting fans though.

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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#65 Post by tlynn78 » Tue May 29, 2018 9:26 am

BackInTex wrote:
tlynn78 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:The protocol is different in California. Many judges here don't even have attorneys stand while they're addressing the court. Jurors never enter the courtroom here until everyone else is in place. --Bob
Everyone stands for the judges here. If an attorney fails to stand (without leave of the Court) when addressing the Court, he or she would most certainly be reprimanded.
Says a lot for California.
Or at least some of their Bar members.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#66 Post by Bob78164 » Tue May 29, 2018 9:34 am

tlynn78 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
tlynn78 wrote:
Everyone stands for the judges here. If an attorney fails to stand (without leave of the Court) when addressing the Court, he or she would most certainly be reprimanded.
Says a lot for California.
Or at least some of their Bar members.
Let me be clear about this. The clerk usually begins court by saying, "Remain seated and come to order." And I've had judges expressly instruct attorneys to remain seated when addressing the court. So what's the basis for your cheap and unfounded shot at me? --Bob
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#67 Post by tlynn78 » Tue May 29, 2018 9:39 am

Bob78164 wrote:
tlynn78 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
Says a lot for California.
Or at least some of their Bar members.
Let me be clear about this. The clerk usually begins court by saying, "Remain seated and come to order." And I've had judges expressly instruct attorneys to remain seated when addressing the court. So what's the basis for your cheap and unfounded shot at me? --Bob
In my opinion it shows an appalling lack of respect to the Court. I'm fairly certain the current practice hasn't always been the case in California. It's a fair assumption that members of the Bar Association(s) there have had something to do with the change. Are you the entire Bar? Unwad your panties.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#68 Post by Estonut » Tue May 29, 2018 5:14 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:As for your comments about substituting language in the singing of the national anthem:
I prefaced my original 3 comments with, "His experience does not match my own in several ways."

I wanted to point out that the things described in your article were certainly not universal, as you think everything is.
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#69 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue May 29, 2018 5:32 pm

Estonut wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:As for your comments about substituting language in the singing of the national anthem:
I prefaced my original 3 comments with, "His experience does not match my own in several ways."

I wanted to point out that the things described in your article were certainly not universal, as you think everything is.
No, your original comment, a couple of posts before that implied that I didn't know what I was talking about because I had never been to a game. A statement that is neither true nor relevant here.
Aren't you watching through the lens of a TV station? Try going to a game sometime to get an unfiltered opinion of the crowd's behavior. Oh, never mind, they don't issue discount coupons for ballgames, do they?
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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#70 Post by Vandal » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:00 pm

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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#71 Post by jarnon » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:16 pm

Vandal wrote:Image
Nobody kneeled at Eagles games. Some players plan to do community service in D.C. tomorrow. But that's not good enough for Trump's big ego.

Gov. Wolf honored the Eagles' victory yesterday. He knows that NFL fans vote.

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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#72 Post by mellytu74 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:11 pm

jarnon wrote:
Vandal wrote:Image
Nobody kneeled at Eagles games. Some players plan to do community service in D.C. tomorrow. But that's not good enough for Trump's big ego.

Gov. Wolf honored the Eagles' victory yesterday. He knows that NFL fans vote.
Eagles owner Jeffrey Lurie, who thinks Trump is a Cheeto-dusted chowderhead, was planning to be there.

Senator Casey invited them to tour the Capitol.

And, yes, no Eagles knelt.

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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#73 Post by Vandal » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:10 am

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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#74 Post by Vandal » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:25 pm

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Re: New NFL National Anthem Rules

#75 Post by Brit Canuck » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:25 pm

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Sorry, I know this joke's old, but someone had to do the meme thing. :roll:
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