#Towergate #FakeNews

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jarnon
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#Towergate #FakeNews

#1 Post by jarnon » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:58 am

President Trump has accused the Obama Administration of crimes like the ones that caused Nixon's downfall.
Donald J. Trump wrote:How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!
The quote is not fake news. I copied it straight from @realDonaldTrump on Twitter. But the alleged crime is fake.

In the good old days (two months ago) officials would call even the most obviously guilty criminals (such as the Boston Marathon bombers) "accused" or "alleged" until they were convicted, lest their lawyers argue that their rights were violated. Now the President doesn't hesitate to label his predecessor a criminal.

Why aren't the people who believe Trump demanding a special prosecutor? (Sessions has recused himself, and can the rest of DOJ be trusted to investigate itself?) On the other side, the media are giving this less attention than fake news about crowd size, Swedish terror and Martin Luther King's bust. Has Trump lost so much credibility that his tweets are greeted with a yawn?

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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#2 Post by ghostjmf » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:19 am

It took a while (like, the point in the 2nd term when all the Watergate stuff started coming out) for people, including people who didn't like him to begin with, to realize Nixon was a paranoid (&, also, its turns out, a crook. The "hire people to do breaking-&-entering kind".).

Trump, the "original birther", has never hidden his craziness. You could say that's what got him elected. Its not big news that he's paranoid. And neither he nor anyone in his administration except maybe Priebus, who he inherited from the Republican party, has any notion or gives a hoot that calling people names & accusing them of crimes they haven't committed are at least in some instances criminal offenses themselves.

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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#3 Post by Bob78164 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:20 am

jarnon wrote:President Trump has accused the Obama Administration of crimes like the ones that caused Nixon's downfall.
Donald J. Trump wrote:How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!
The quote is not fake news. I copied it straight from @realDonaldTrump on Twitter. But the alleged crime is fake.

In the good old days (two months ago) officials would call even the most obviously guilty criminals (such as the Boston Marathon bombers) "accused" or "alleged" until they were convicted, lest their lawyers argue that their rights were violated. Now the President doesn't hesitate to label his predecessor a criminal.

Why aren't the people who believe Trump demanding a special prosecutor? (Sessions has recused himself, and can the rest of DOJ be trusted to investigate itself?) On the other side, the media are giving this less attention than fake news about crowd size, Swedish terror and Martin Luther King's bust. Has Trump lost so much credibility that his tweets are greeted with a yawn?
I think the press is figuring out that Donny uses outrageous tweets in an effort to control the news cycle, so that the proper response is to ignore what he says and watch what he does. --Bob
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#4 Post by Bob78164 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:22 am

ghostjmf wrote:It took a while (like, the point in the 2nd term when all the Watergate stuff started coming out) for people, including people who didn't like him to begin with, to realize Nixon was a paranoid (&, also, its turns out, a crook. The "hire people to do breaking-&-entering kind".).

Trump, the "original birther", has never hidden his craziness. You could say that's what got him elected. Its not big news that he's paranoid. And neither he nor anyone in his administration except maybe Priebus, who he inherited from the Republican party, has any notion or gives a hoot that calling people names & accusing them of crimes they haven't committed are at least in some instances criminal offenses themselves.
Not criminal. But I think I'd enjoy seeing President Obama sue Donny for defamation. --Bob
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#5 Post by BackInTex » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:42 am

jarnon wrote: can the rest of DOJ be trusted to investigate itself?)
It was no problem during the Obama years
jarnon wrote: Has Trump lost so much credibility that his tweets are greeted with a yawn?
I've always yawned. Pretty much at any tweets, but especially his. They are pointy sticks.
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#6 Post by Pastor Fireball » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:46 am

Even if the story itself was true, Drumpf's phones can and should be tapped because a federal judge would determine that a federal crime had been committed by that withered kumquat marinated in ipecac. That's the entire point of wiretaps.

Which means that, either way, Drumpf is pf**ked.
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#7 Post by SpacemanSpiff » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:56 pm

Let's look at it this way - while everyone is talking about this, it drops Russia off the radar.
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#8 Post by jarnon » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:31 pm

SpacemanSpiff wrote:Let's look at it this way - while everyone is talking about this, it drops Russia off the radar.
More like, it turns the Russia issue on its head. According to Trump loyalists, Russian hacking was Obama's excuse to get the FBI to investigate the Trump campaign (when they should have been pursuing Clinton) just like Nixon got the corrupt FBI and DOJ to go after his enemies. If Trump really believes it, and his side did nothing wrong, he should appoint a special prosecutor.

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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#9 Post by a1mamacat » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:44 pm

Trump is proving more and more every day, that he needs to be sent away for a long long long rest.

As an infamous former poster used to say. "paranoia will destroy ya"

Paranoid schizophrenia, also called schizophrenia, paranoid type, is a sub-type of schizophrenia as defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, DSM-IV code 295.30.[1] It has been the most common type of schizophrenia.[2][3] Schizophrenia is defined as “a chronic mental disorder in which a person loses touch with reality (psychosis)."[4] Schizophrenia is divided into subtypes based on the “predominant symptomatology at the time of evaluation."[5] The clinical picture is dominated by relatively stable and often persecutory delusions that are usually accompanied by hallucinations, particularly of the auditory variety (hearing voices), and perceptual disturbances. These symptoms can have a huge effect on functioning and can negatively affect quality of life. Paranoid schizophrenia is a lifelong disease, but with proper treatment, a person with the illness can attain a higher quality of life.
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#10 Post by silverscreenselect » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:31 pm

jarnon wrote:
SpacemanSpiff wrote:Let's look at it this way - while everyone is talking about this, it drops Russia off the radar.
More like, it turns the Russia issue on its head. According to Trump loyalists, Russian hacking was Obama's excuse to get the FBI to investigate the Trump campaign (when they should have been pursuing Clinton) just like Nixon got the corrupt FBI and DOJ to go after his enemies. If Trump really believes it, and his side did nothing wrong, he should appoint a special prosecutor.
In order to wiretap Trump, Obama would have had to get a warrant from the FISA court, and there's a record of that, along with whatever was in the warrant application. It would have to be very damaging information to get a court to go along with tapping a major party candidate for president.
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#11 Post by Estonut » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:04 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
jarnon wrote:
SpacemanSpiff wrote:Let's look at it this way - while everyone is talking about this, it drops Russia off the radar.
More like, it turns the Russia issue on its head. According to Trump loyalists, Russian hacking was Obama's excuse to get the FBI to investigate the Trump campaign (when they should have been pursuing Clinton) just like Nixon got the corrupt FBI and DOJ to go after his enemies. If Trump really believes it, and his side did nothing wrong, he should appoint a special prosecutor.
In order to wiretap Trump, Obama would have had to get a warrant from the FISA court, and there's a record of that, along with whatever was in the warrant application. It would have to be very damaging information to get a court to go along with tapping a major party candidate for president.
Yeah, that, or get someone to hire a spook...

No one is going to go through legal channels to set up an illegal wiretap.
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#12 Post by jarnon » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:27 pm

Obama's spokesman, former DNI Clapper and FBI director Comey all deny there was a wiretap.

Congress says they'll investigate Trump's claims, but that could be to show they're fair and to ensure the White House cooperates with their probe of Russian hacking.

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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#13 Post by jaybee » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:20 pm

I'm beginning to think that we have somewhere between 3 and 5 more batshit crazy claims to go before they no longer make even the late edition of the news.

Also beginning to think that this may be the plan all along.

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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#14 Post by silverscreenselect » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:51 pm

Estonut wrote:
No one is going to go through legal channels to set up an illegal wiretap.
So what does Obama do, look through the Washington DC yellow pages for a private detective?

Trump crossed a line here, probably because he doesn't really understand what he's saying. He has accused the President of the United States of engaging in a criminal conspiracy. And to do that, you darn well better be sure you have some strong evidence.

It's one thing for private citizen Trump to engage in Breitbart looniness; it's another for the President of the United States. Even the FBI is now demanding for Trump to put up or shut up.

Yes, Nixon did it, but by the time the Post got around to connecting him directly into this entire mess, they had built the case up one story at a time, one lead at a time. We're to assume that Trump got all this proof, not a word of which has shown up anywhere else, and decides to break the story through a 3AM tweetfest.
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#15 Post by Bob78164 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:28 pm

At some point people will realize that what Donny tweets isn't news and shouldn't be treated as such, primarily because even if he's making factual assertions the fact that he's the one making them means that his tweets have no factual content. Kind of like how the media are starting to treat Kellyanne Conway. Donny's in the White House so it'll take a little longer, but they'll get there. --Bob
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#16 Post by Ritterskoop » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:13 am

jarnon wrote:the media are giving this less attention than fake news about crowd size, Swedish terror and Martin Luther King's bust. Has Trump lost so much credibility that his tweets are greeted with a yawn?
What am I missing? His tweet was at 4:02 a.m. Saturday (or 7:02, I've seen different versions, but he tends to tweet in the 3-4 a.m. Eastern zone).

You posted this at 10 or 11 a.m. (If I understand our board's clock).

CBS News posted a story at 1:06 pm with a response from the Obama team.

CNN addressed the story at 2 p.m., calling the accusation false in a huge headline.

There have got to be plenty of other examples; those are just the first two I found.

It takes time for responsible, respected news organizations to do some research and ask questions of good sources before they publish. I don't think these periods of a few hours are out of line when the story is so big. To say that "the media" are not doing their jobs, I think, goes a little too far.
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#17 Post by Estonut » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:44 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Estonut wrote:No one is going to go through legal channels to set up an illegal wiretap.
So what does Obama do, look through the Washington DC yellow pages for a private detective?
Do you really believe that the PotUS doesn't have access to someone who could set up an illegal wiretap for him?
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#18 Post by Estonut » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:47 am

Bob78164 wrote:At some point people will realize that what Donny tweets isn't news and shouldn't be treated as such, primarily because even if he's making factual assertions the fact that he's the one making them means that his tweets have no factual content. Kind of like how the media are starting to treat Kellyanne Conway. Donny's in the White House so it'll take a little longer, but they'll get there.
Do you even listen to yourself before posting? A fact is a fact, no matter who the messenger is. You are saying that even if he does post something factual, it won't be a fact because it came from him. It is probably true that it won't be perceived as a fact because of the source, but that does NOT take away its factual content.
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#19 Post by jarnon » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:05 am

Ritterskoop wrote:It takes time for responsible, respected news organizations to do some research and ask questions of good sources before they publish. I don't think these periods of a few hours are out of line when the story is so big. To say that "the media" are not doing their jobs, I think, goes a little too far.
You're right. My surprise at the mild reaction was premature.

And my clever hashtag #Towergate is now all over the Internet. Both sides are using it. Hope it'll become a trending topic.

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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#20 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:12 am

Estonut wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
Estonut wrote:No one is going to go through legal channels to set up an illegal wiretap.
So what does Obama do, look through the Washington DC yellow pages for a private detective?
Do you really believe that the PotUS doesn't have access to someone who could set up an illegal wiretap for him?

It's not just a "someone." It's a bunch of someones and a bunch of other someones to pay for it and to analyze the information and, presumably, to act on the information if there's anything worth acting on.

And he did it all without any leaks or anyone in the FBI, CIA, or Justice Department becoming aware of it other than Donald Trump's secret, highly reliable source.

Leaving aside the question of what Obama expected to gain by all this.
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#21 Post by Bob78164 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:44 pm

Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:At some point people will realize that what Donny tweets isn't news and shouldn't be treated as such, primarily because even if he's making factual assertions the fact that he's the one making them means that his tweets have no factual content. Kind of like how the media are starting to treat Kellyanne Conway. Donny's in the White House so it'll take a little longer, but they'll get there.
Do you even listen to yourself before posting? A fact is a fact, no matter who the messenger is. You are saying that even if he does post something factual, it won't be a fact because it came from him. It is probably true that it won't be perceived as a fact because of the source, but that does NOT take away its factual content.
No, I'm saying that his assertions that claim to be factual aren't. Like this one, which he apparently got directly from Breitbart.

The media should not consider Donny's statements as evidence of anything. If independent sources can't corroborate it, it's not newsworthy. --Bob
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#22 Post by Bob78164 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:56 pm

On the other hand, when the Attorney General is caught lying under oath at his confirmation hearing, that's news. And as long as he remains in office, it should remain news.

Why won't Republicans en masse call for a special prosecutor? Will they engage in their own investigation? Will they start impeachment proceedings? After all, if lying under oath in a civil suit about sex is grounds to impeach a President, then lying under oath at your confirmation hearing about contacts with a hostile foreign government certainly should be grounds to impeach a cabinet officer. --Bob
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#23 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:12 pm

I do want to take this occasion to publicly apologize to Spock. In another thread, I criticized him for relying on Mark Steyn as his source for claims about the effects of immigration.

It's not fair for me to do so when our President, who presumably has greater intelligence resources at his disposal than Spock does, relies on Mark Levin as his source for a claim that President Obama engaged in illegal covert wiretaps.
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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#24 Post by jarnon » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:30 pm

OK, maybe there's some truth to the accusation.

Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman

According to CNN, the surveillance stopped before Manafort became campaign chairman, without finding anything incriminating. But after Manafort left the campaign, the FBI got a new warrant and started investigating him again. So Comey wasn't lying when he said the Trump campaign wasn't wiretapped. But Manafort did occasionally talk to with Trump while under surveillance.

Then again, this story is from CNN, the mother of #FakeNews.

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Re: #Towergate #FakeNews

#25 Post by jarnon » Fri May 18, 2018 9:41 am

Trump has made a new explosive allegation:
Donald J. Trump wrote:“Apparently the DOJ put a Spy in the Trump Campaign. This has never been done before and by any means necessary, they are out to frame Donald Trump for crimes he didn’t commit.” David Asman @LouDobbs @GreggJarrett Really bad stuff!
Donald J. Trump wrote:Reports are there was indeed at least one FBI representative implanted, for political purposes, into my campaign for president. It took place very early on, and long before the phony Russia Hoax became a “hot” Fake News story. If true - all time biggest political scandal!
Like the wiretapping claim, there could be a grain of truth to this, since the FBI was already investigating campaign officials like Manafort for past crimes. Trump should have vetted his campaign staff better.

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