With Our Modern Day Jacobins

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Spock
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With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#1 Post by Spock » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:51 pm

starting to seriously cast their malevolent, destructive eyes toward Mount Rushmore (they never build, they only destroy) I am starting to think that the only way this ends is in war.

We are obviously 2 countries now. We might as well make it official. A civil split would be nice, but I am afraid it will be a lot bloodier than that.

Bob#'s just might get his hoped for civil war of a few months ago, yet

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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#2 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:47 pm

I guess that Spock prefers those blissful days of yore when we conveniently ignored all the less savory aspects of our past.
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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#3 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:23 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:47 pm
I guess that Spock prefers those blissful days of yore when we conveniently ignored all the less savory aspects of our past.
Sounds to me like he just threatened armed rebellion if his preferred side gets blown out in November. --Bob
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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#4 Post by Spock » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:29 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:47 pm
I guess that Spock prefers those blissful days of yore when we conveniently ignored all the less savory aspects of our past.
Interestingly, nobody said that tearing down Mount Rushmore was totally off the table.

It is safe to say that we have entered a stage that we only look at the less savory aspects of the past and you are attacked for doing otherwise.

I am all about context-good and bad, That is one of the major themes over at Frontier Partisans. I doubt that either SSS or the Bobs spend any time anywhere that is as nuanced as Frontier Partisans.

Let's look at the linked picture.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbxxlfzVAAI ... ame=medium

1) Washington-"Dentures made of slave teeth"-Really, that is all you got?
One of the greatest men that ever lived and "he wore dentures made out of slave teeth."My favorite thing about Washington is that he was making a living at age 17 as a surveyor in the western lands. But by all means, let's listen to the armies of keyboard warriors who will never accomplish anything as they tear down the "Indispensable Man.".

2)Jefferson-""Raped Child Slaves"-Maybe so, maybe no. Once again, one of the greatest men who ever lived. Wrote the Declaration of Independence at age 33. Meanwhile SSS and the Bob's concentrate their political writings on an obscure message board.

I doubt that very many people who are ostensibly upset about Jefferson's child sex slavery care one iota about slavery. There are countless countries in the world today where slavery exists. They could be putting their efforts where it would do some good in their lifetime instead of serving in an army of keyboard warriors as they try to tear down somebody who lived 200 years ago.

3) Lincoln-"Largest Mass Hanging 38 Dakotas." A little context would be nice here and I might give some later. But I would like to assign SSS to tell the story. Good and Bad-How was the 38 arrived at? etc, etc. What was the back story. He won't do it. but I sure would like to hear the story as he tells it.

4) TR-"The Only Good indian is a Dead Indian"
I guess we are totally going to ignore his contributions to the environment. Once again, one of the greatest men who ever lived. He did far more for conservation and the environment than any number of keyboard warriors trying to tear him down today.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh, BTW, Bob-you were the one who brought up a Civil War months ago. Sure sounded like you were ready to sign up. Feel free to go back and look it up. I am not going to.

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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#5 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:53 pm

Spock wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:29 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:47 pm
I guess that Spock prefers those blissful days of yore when we conveniently ignored all the less savory aspects of our past.
Interestingly, nobody said that tearing down Mount Rushmore was totally off the table.

It is safe to say that we have entered a stage that we only look at the less savory aspects of the past and you are attacked for doing otherwise.

I am all about context-good and bad, That is one of the major themes over at Frontier Partisans. I doubt that either SSS or the Bobs spend any time anywhere that is as nuanced as Frontier Partisans.

Let's look at the linked picture.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbxxlfzVAAI ... ame=medium

1) Washington-"Dentures made of slave teeth"-Really, that is all you got?
One of the greatest men that ever lived and "he wore dentures made out of slave teeth."My favorite thing about Washington is that he was making a living at age 17 as a surveyor in the western lands. But by all means, let's listen to the armies of keyboard warriors who will never accomplish anything as they tear down the "Indispensable Man.".

2)Jefferson-""Raped Child Slaves"-Maybe so, maybe no. Once again, one of the greatest men who ever lived. Wrote the Declaration of Independence at age 33. Meanwhile SSS and the Bob's concentrate their political writings on an obscure message board.

I doubt that very many people who are ostensibly upset about Jefferson's child sex slavery care one iota about slavery. There are countless countries in the world today where slavery exists. They could be putting their efforts where it would do some good in their lifetime instead of serving in an army of keyboard warriors as they try to tear down somebody who lived 200 years ago.

3) Lincoln-"Largest Mass Hanging 38 Dakotas." A little context would be nice here and I might give some later. But I would like to assign SSS to tell the story. Good and Bad-How was the 38 arrived at? etc, etc. What was the back story. He won't do it. but I sure would like to hear the story as he tells it.

4) TR-"The Only Good indian is a Dead Indian"
I guess we are totally going to ignore his contributions to the environment. Once again, one of the greatest men who ever lived. He did far more for conservation and the environment than any number of keyboard warriors trying to tear him down today.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh, BTW, Bob-you were the one who brought up a Civil War months ago. Sure sounded like you were ready to sign up. Feel free to go back and look it up. I am not going to.
No need. I remember you misreading my words. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#6 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:47 pm

Spock wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:29 pm
It is safe to say that we have entered a stage that we only look at the less savory aspects of the past and you are attacked for doing otherwise.
No, what happens is that we go through lengthy periods of time when a large portion of the public prefers to ignore the past and pretend that everything today is fine. Then something happens that essentially exposes the ugly underside of our society and that even those who would like to go through life with blinders can't ignore. The Confederate battle flag flew over the state capitol in South Carolina for a half a century, but nothing was done about it until the Charleston church shootings. That same flag has been part of the Mississippi state flag for over 100 years until the George Floyd killing and protests provided the necessary momentum to get it removed.

Confederate statues and street names are just as offensive to blacks today as they were 50 or 100 years ago. But the lesson that activists have learned is that public outrage and amenability to change is short-lived. Most of the statues stayed up after Charleston. I think a lot of the people who are deeply offended by this imagery realize that the window of time they have to do something about it may not last very long. So, they air every grievance they have to see what can get done.

Spock decides to pick one photoshopped meme image of Mount Rushmore as what he feels is the sum total of the grievances about the monument. This is about a lot more than George Washington's dentures. Many Native Americans want the monuments to come down because they feel (with a good deal of justification) that the land on which those monuments sit was stolen by the U.S. government. Others are upset that Gutzon Borglum was a white supremacist. In an ideal society, all of these grievances could have been discussed at length and resolved sometime over the past several decades (without tearing down the statues). But we don't live in an ideal society. We live in one where these issues are ignored and those who bring them up are labeled as kooks or un-American or anarchists or whatever. The only time we can have anything approaching a meaningful dialogue is at times like these.

I don't know anything about Spock's Sons of the Pioneers chat group, but based on what he's shown in this thread, the only thing they seem capable of doing is knocking down a particularly flimsy straw man from some twitter feed. I'm sure he'll be glad to provide me with a link to some especially noteworthy discussion they have of the entire context surrounding the Mount Rushmore controversy and some suggestions besides what's been done in the past... try to ignore the issue until the heat dies down.

But I do want to give Spock credit and thanks for hanging around here. It's good to have someone to provide an opposite viewpoint, especially since Flock has (quite understandably) gone into hiding.
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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#7 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm

Damn it, Spock, go back into your hole. It was rather pleasant here.
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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#8 Post by tlynn78 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:02 am

Bob Juch wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Damn it, Spock, go back into your hole. It was rather pleasant here.
LMAO!!! You folks really hate being exposed to anything other than your groupthink, don't you? Bless your hearts, that's just pathetic.
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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#9 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:19 am

tlynn78 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:02 am
Bob Juch wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Damn it, Spock, go back into your hole. It was rather pleasant here.
LMAO!!! You folks really hate being exposed to anything other than your groupthink, don't you? Bless your hearts, that's just pathetic.
You'll notice that I didn't suggest that Spock leave. I want him and Flock and BiT here and active.
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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#10 Post by Spock » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:50 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:47 pm
Spock wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:29 pm
It is safe to say that we have entered a stage that we only look at the less savory aspects of the past and you are attacked for doing otherwise.
No, what happens is that we go through lengthy periods of time when a large portion of the public prefers to ignore the past and pretend that everything today is fine. Then something happens that essentially exposes the ugly underside of our society and that even those who would like to go through life with blinders can't ignore. The Confederate battle flag flew over the state capitol in South Carolina for a half a century, but nothing was done about it until the Charleston church shootings. That same flag has been part of the Mississippi state flag for over 100 years until the George Floyd killing and protests provided the necessary momentum to get it removed.

Confederate statues and street names are just as offensive to blacks today as they were 50 or 100 years ago. But the lesson that activists have learned is that public outrage and amenability to change is short-lived. Most of the statues stayed up after Charleston. I think a lot of the people who are deeply offended by this imagery realize that the window of time they have to do something about it may not last very long. So, they air every grievance they have to see what can get done.

Spock decides to pick one photoshopped meme image of Mount Rushmore as what he feels is the sum total of the grievances about the monument. This is about a lot more than George Washington's dentures. Many Native Americans want the monuments to come down because they feel (with a good deal of justification) that the land on which those monuments sit was stolen by the U.S. government. Others are upset that Gutzon Borglum was a white supremacist. In an ideal society, all of these grievances could have been discussed at length and resolved sometime over the past several decades (without tearing down the statues). But we don't live in an ideal society. We live in one where these issues are ignored and those who bring them up are labeled as kooks or un-American or anarchists or whatever. The only time we can have anything approaching a meaningful dialogue is at times like these.

I don't know anything about Spock's Sons of the Pioneers chat group, but based on what he's shown in this thread, the only thing they seem capable of doing is knocking down a particularly flimsy straw man from some twitter feed. I'm sure he'll be glad to provide me with a link to some especially noteworthy discussion they have of the entire context surrounding the Mount Rushmore controversy and some suggestions besides what's been done in the past... try to ignore the issue until the heat dies down.

But I do want to give Spock credit and thanks for hanging around here. It's good to have someone to provide an opposite viewpoint, especially since Flock has (quite understandably) gone into hiding.
Interesting that you had time to write a long essay about "Spock, Blah, Blah, Blah." But you haven't found time to fill us in on the unvarnished history and truth behind the "Largest Mass Execution" meme on Lincoln that is floating around all over the place.

Also, what are your thoughts on the imperialism of the Lakota Sioux? For example, the land where the Little Bighorn was fought was Crow country little more than a decade before that. The Sioux and Cheyenne pushed them out through war. See-Lakota America.-
Without looking it up, it would be interesting if you could give us a ballpark guess about how long the Sioux owned the Black Hills.

https://www.amazon.com/Lakota-America-H ... 0300215959

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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#11 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:17 pm

Spock wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:50 am
silverscreenselect wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:47 pm
Spock wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:29 pm
It is safe to say that we have entered a stage that we only look at the less savory aspects of the past and you are attacked for doing otherwise.
No, what happens is that we go through lengthy periods of time when a large portion of the public prefers to ignore the past and pretend that everything today is fine. Then something happens that essentially exposes the ugly underside of our society and that even those who would like to go through life with blinders can't ignore. The Confederate battle flag flew over the state capitol in South Carolina for a half a century, but nothing was done about it until the Charleston church shootings. That same flag has been part of the Mississippi state flag for over 100 years until the George Floyd killing and protests provided the necessary momentum to get it removed.

Confederate statues and street names are just as offensive to blacks today as they were 50 or 100 years ago. But the lesson that activists have learned is that public outrage and amenability to change is short-lived. Most of the statues stayed up after Charleston. I think a lot of the people who are deeply offended by this imagery realize that the window of time they have to do something about it may not last very long. So, they air every grievance they have to see what can get done.

Spock decides to pick one photoshopped meme image of Mount Rushmore as what he feels is the sum total of the grievances about the monument. This is about a lot more than George Washington's dentures. Many Native Americans want the monuments to come down because they feel (with a good deal of justification) that the land on which those monuments sit was stolen by the U.S. government. Others are upset that Gutzon Borglum was a white supremacist. In an ideal society, all of these grievances could have been discussed at length and resolved sometime over the past several decades (without tearing down the statues). But we don't live in an ideal society. We live in one where these issues are ignored and those who bring them up are labeled as kooks or un-American or anarchists or whatever. The only time we can have anything approaching a meaningful dialogue is at times like these.

I don't know anything about Spock's Sons of the Pioneers chat group, but based on what he's shown in this thread, the only thing they seem capable of doing is knocking down a particularly flimsy straw man from some twitter feed. I'm sure he'll be glad to provide me with a link to some especially noteworthy discussion they have of the entire context surrounding the Mount Rushmore controversy and some suggestions besides what's been done in the past... try to ignore the issue until the heat dies down.

But I do want to give Spock credit and thanks for hanging around here. It's good to have someone to provide an opposite viewpoint, especially since Flock has (quite understandably) gone into hiding.
Interesting that you had time to write a long essay about "Spock, Blah, Blah, Blah." But you haven't found time to fill us in on the unvarnished history and truth behind the "Largest Mass Execution" meme on Lincoln that is floating around all over the place.

Also, what are your thoughts on the imperialism of the Lakota Sioux? For example, the land where the Little Bighorn was fought was Crow country little more than a decade before that. The Sioux and Cheyenne pushed them out through war. See-Lakota America.-
Without looking it up, it would be interesting if you could give us a ballpark guess about how long the Sioux owned the Black Hills.

https://www.amazon.com/Lakota-America-H ... 0300215959
Current events aren't enough? Do you have to bring up that?
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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#12 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:36 pm

Spock wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:50 am
Interesting that you had time to write a long essay about "Spock, Blah, Blah, Blah." But you haven't found time to fill us in on the unvarnished history and truth behind the "Largest Mass Execution" meme on Lincoln that is floating around all over the place.
Because I have better things to do with my time than to research and reply to every stray internet Twitter meme that's floating around. Apparently you and the Sons of the Pioneers do not. It's also a lot easier to respond to a meme that someone can photoshop on a picture of Mount Rushmore than the numerous detailed grievances expressed about Mount Rushmore.
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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#13 Post by Spock » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:27 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:36 pm
Spock wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:50 am
Interesting that you had time to write a long essay about "Spock, Blah, Blah, Blah." But you haven't found time to fill us in on the unvarnished history and truth behind the "Largest Mass Execution" meme on Lincoln that is floating around all over the place.
Because I have better things to do with my time than to research and reply to every stray internet Twitter meme that's floating around. Apparently you and the Sons of the Pioneers do not. It's also a lot easier to respond to a meme that someone can photoshop on a picture of Mount Rushmore than the numerous detailed grievances expressed about Mount Rushmore.
Laughing my ass off at you. Yes, your your time is so valuable. You would never waste your valuable and limited time on this earth doing something like endless, repetitive political commentary on an obscure message board.

I missed the significance of this New York Times Tweet earlier.

>>>"Mount Rushmore was built on land that belonged to the Lakota tribe and sculpted by a man who had strong bonds with the Ku Klux Klan. It features the faces of 2 U.S. presidents who were slaveholders."<<<

Boy, you guys are really, seriously going after Mount Rushmore aren't you?

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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#14 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:38 pm

Spock wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:27 pm
>>>"Mount Rushmore was built on land that belonged to the Lakota tribe and sculpted by a man who had strong bonds with the Ku Klux Klan. It features the faces of 2 U.S. presidents who were slaveholders."<<<
Out of curiosity, which parts of this tweet do you disagree with?
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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#15 Post by Spock » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:54 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:38 pm
Spock wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:27 pm
>>>"Mount Rushmore was built on land that belonged to the Lakota tribe and sculpted by a man who had strong bonds with the Ku Klux Klan. It features the faces of 2 U.S. presidents who were slaveholders."<<<
Out of curiosity, which parts of this tweet do you disagree with?
No, you do the context and background on "Lincoln mass executions" first.

I will make it simple for you.

Part of your answer is in the NYT times story linked in the tweet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/us/m ... tw-nytimes

Just another thought-we worship the WPA and the CCC for the jobs provided in the Depression.

The construction of Mount Rushmore employed a lot of men throughout the Great Depression. That is part of the story too.

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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#16 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:51 pm

Spock wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:54 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:38 pm
Spock wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:27 pm
>>>"Mount Rushmore was built on land that belonged to the Lakota tribe and sculpted by a man who had strong bonds with the Ku Klux Klan. It features the faces of 2 U.S. presidents who were slaveholders."<<<
Out of curiosity, which parts of this tweet do you disagree with?
No, you do the context and background on "Lincoln mass executions" first.
You seem to feel that you can bring up any crackpot theory regardless of what it has to do with any matter under discussion and insist that Bob or I research it before you will engage in any commentary about a subject.

I didn't bring up Lincoln mass executions. I never mentioned that as a reason to do something about Mount Rushmore. As far as I know, no one other than the creator of that anonymous Twitter post feels it has anything to do with Mount Rushmore. The only people who seem to find this subject interesting are you and the Sons of the Pioneers.

I happen to find the history of Georgia Tech football very interesting, but I certainly wouldn't demand that you or Bob or anyone on this Bored research that history before I would discuss the Black Lives Matter movement or the pandemic or Putin's paying a bounty on US soldiers or any of the other far more pressing matters before this country than what some Twitter twit thinks Lincoln did regarding executions 150+ years ago.

Your demands that Bob and I "do our homework" are nothing more than a rather cheap attempt to find a way to "win" an argument.
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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#17 Post by Beebs52 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:33 pm

The transparent ignorance/dismissal of the questions brought up initially in this post is tres amusant. Current events? Research?

Nihilist cancel culture is cherrypicking its own destructive pathway landmarks by forgetting current events of the past, ie, fucking history.

Funniest thread ever.
Oh please.

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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#18 Post by Spock » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:10 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:51 pm
Spock wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:54 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:38 pm


Out of curiosity, which parts of this tweet do you disagree with?
No, you do the context and background on "Lincoln mass executions" first.
You seem to feel that you can bring up any crackpot theory regardless of what it has to do with any matter under discussion and insist that Bob or I research it before you will engage in any commentary about a subject.

I didn't bring up Lincoln mass executions. I never mentioned that as a reason to do something about Mount Rushmore. As far as I know, no one other than the creator of that anonymous Twitter post feels it has anything to do with Mount Rushmore. The only people who seem to find this subject interesting are you and the Sons of the Pioneers.

I happen to find the history of Georgia Tech football very interesting, but I certainly wouldn't demand that you or Bob or anyone on this Bored research that history before I would discuss the Black Lives Matter movement or the pandemic or Putin's paying a bounty on US soldiers or any of the other far more pressing matters before this country than what some Twitter twit thinks Lincoln did regarding executions 150+ years ago.

Your demands that Bob and I "do our homework" are nothing more than a rather cheap attempt to find a way to "win" an argument.
Interesting that your time is too valuable to read a linked New York Times article-but not too valuable to write a lengthy essay blowing it off. So let's start with the most important background on the subject of "Lincoln presiding over the largest mass execution in US history of 38 Dakotas.

In the aftermath of the bloody Sioux Uprising in Minnesota, Lincoln is given a list of 300 plus Dakota men slated for almost immediate execution by the Minnesota TPTB. He said 'hold on a minute-I need to figure this out."

He somehow winnowed the list of 300 down to 38.

SSS, you are an attorney, as was Lincoln, what criteria do you think he might have used to winnow the list from 300 plus to 38?

Also, keep in mind-it was a hard time and a time for hard decisions. Antietam, Fredericksburg and hundreds of dead settlers in Minnesota. Let's accept that Lincoln knew that some of the Dakota would have to be executed.

Most importantly, as the "Lincoln largest mass execution' meme makes its way around-just remember he winnowed the list from 300 plus to 38. That in itself is pretty frickin' cool.

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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#19 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:54 pm

Spock wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:10 pm
Most importantly, as the "Lincoln largest mass execution' meme makes its way around-just remember he winnowed the list from 300 plus to 38. That in itself is pretty frickin' cool.
Congratulations Spock. You have just demonstrated that you can demolish the straw man that you erected.

You still haven't listed a single person other than your anonymous Twitter poster who suggests that Lincoln's role in the Dakota executions was reason to close Mt. Rushmore. The closest in the Times article is that statement that he (Lincoln) has been criticized for his role.
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Re: With Our Modern Day Jacobins

#20 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:16 pm

How Mount Rushmore Became Mount Rushmore

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/us/m ... hmore.html
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